# Homosexuality is 'unnatural' **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 20, 2013, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-is-unnatural/664031 "2013-07-20T13:42:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![GrumpyBunny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bc8723/32.png) [@GrumpyBunny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GrumpyBunny)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2014, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-is-unnatural/664031/301 "2014-11-07T15:13:32Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > How _you_ doin’? _waggles eyebrows_ ---
**Author:** ![GrumpyBunny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bc8723/32.png) [@GrumpyBunny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GrumpyBunny)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2014, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-is-unnatural/664031/302 "2014-11-07T15:21:50Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > Dear Ms. Bunny, > > I have reviewed your updates to the Athiestic Agenda™ for next week – great job as usual, but I’m concerned that it’s getting a little long. I think we all understand the basics – the importance of converting pre-schoolers to homosexuality and so forth, but is it really necessary to keep rehashing the basics? Maybe we should just try to focus on what’s new each week, like our successful field trip last Thursday when we took the entire Monastery of the Holy Resurrection to Juicy Lucy’s 4Play Lounge and at least half those poor repressed Benedictines became impassioned atheists right there on the spot. So maybe let’s try to stick to current events like that miraculous conversion, and keep it short and sweet so all us pre-, post-, non-, and extra-marital atheists can get out there on the workout mats and do the Devil’s work. > > BTW, may I call you “Grumpy” in future correspondence? It seems so much less formal. > > Best atheistic regards, > Wolf > > P.S.- can you please clarify whether “BYOB” means “bring your own boyfriend”? Or is that only for the gays? wolfpup – I get your point, and tend to agree, but wonder – as long as the atheist members continue to argue the same points, should notes be taken, or should we just number the recurring discussion/counterarguments, like in the old joke about jokes in prison? Please do call me Grumpy, or GB. Once everyone’s been on the workout mats, formality is a bit silly. “BYOB” can stand for “boyfriend”, “bottle”, or “battery-operated boyfriend”; we’re atheists, and we’re cool with all of the above! Bring one or all of these! However, as Antinor01 mentioned, our next meeting conflicts with Teh Gays’ annual “Ways to Overthrow Western Civilization” meeting/brunch. Bad show to the Scheduling Committee for not checking the date with the entire membership! I’d suggest we have a warm-up orgy, and move the full experience to our following meeting, when the entire membership can take part. Best, GB ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2014, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-is-unnatural/664031/303 "2014-11-07T15:29:01Z")
We could just play Monopoly. There’s no better proof that no higher power exists than landing on Park Place 10 seconds after spending all your cash reserves on hotels elsewhere. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2014, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-is-unnatural/664031/304 "2014-11-07T17:10:02Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > We could just play Monopoly. There’s no better proof that no higher power exists than landing on Park Place 10 seconds after spending all your cash reserves on hotels elsewhere. Or it’s proof that God does exist and he’s a socialist. ---
**Author:** ![aadi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8baadc/32.png) [@aadi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aadi)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2014, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-is-unnatural/664031/305 "2014-11-08T23:47:46Z")
Just bumped into this forum while searching something else…wow, a great forum Playing devil’s advocate against OP. One reason I believe why people call homosexuals unnatural is because they are incapable of reproducing. and reproduction is one of the natural things for survival (strictly thinking from a evolution perspective). ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2014, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-is-unnatural/664031/306 "2014-11-09T00:11:24Z")
> [@aadi](#): > > Playing devil’s advocate against OP. One reason I believe why people call homosexuals unnatural is because they are incapable of reproducing. And if I, as a straight male, announce my fervent desire to marry a woman who happens to be incapable of reproducing – a post-menopausal woman, say – would you declare me to be unnatural? Given that she’s incapable of reproducing _regardless,_ is it unnatural for her to have sex with me, or for her to have sex with another woman, or what? ---
**Author:** ![Canadjun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/76d3ee/32.png) [@Canadjun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Canadjun)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2014, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-is-unnatural/664031/307 "2014-11-09T00:33:17Z")
> [@aadi](#): > > Just bumped into this forum while searching something else…wow, a great forum > > Playing devil’s advocate against OP. One reason I believe why people call homosexuals unnatural is because they are incapable of reproducing. and reproduction is one of the natural things for survival (strictly thinking from a evolution perspective). So, do you want to ban condoms? ---
**Author:** ![DingoelGringo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9d8465/32.png) [@DingoelGringo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DingoelGringo)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2014, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-is-unnatural/664031/308 "2014-11-09T00:42:10Z")
Along the same lines "A marriage is between one man and one woman.’ Is antibiblical if you have ever read the Bible. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2014, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-is-unnatural/664031/309 "2014-11-09T01:01:25Z")
> [@aadi](#): > > Just bumped into this forum while searching something else…wow, a great forum > > Playing devil’s advocate against OP. One reason I believe why people call homosexuals unnatural is because they are incapable of reproducing. and reproduction is one of the natural things for survival (strictly thinking from a evolution perspective). Let’s explore that logic: Getting a terminal disease before you reach puberty is unnatural. Living past menopause is unnatural for women. Being impotent is unnatural for men. Being barren is unnatural for women. And yet, all those things exist in the natural world. I guess evolution isn’t perfect. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2014, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-is-unnatural/664031/310 "2014-11-09T01:35:32Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Let’s explore that logic: Getting a terminal disease before you reach puberty is unnatural. Living past menopause is unnatural for women. Being impotent is unnatural for men. Being barren is unnatural for women. Becoming a celibate priest is unnatural. ---
**Author:** ![btthegreat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/f4b2a3/32.png) [@btthegreat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/btthegreat)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2014, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-is-unnatural/664031/311 "2014-11-09T01:42:28Z")
I have not read this thread. This gay man could not care less whether any human act or behavior is natural or not. Marriage is unnatural. Driving licenses are unnatural. Fire departments are unnatural. Religion is unnatural. Surgery, bone setting, inoculation, and organ transplantation are all unnatural acts. Meanwhile eating or abandoning your own young, if they are deformed or weak is natural. Driving the disabled or sick from the group is natural. Eating bugs and incest are natural. ---
**Author:** ![rsat3acr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a3d4f5/32.png) [@rsat3acr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rsat3acr)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2014, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-is-unnatural/664031/312 "2014-11-09T02:25:41Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > Becoming a celibate priest is unnatural. that is why they made choir boys.:rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2014, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-is-unnatural/664031/313 "2014-11-09T03:29:00Z")
> [@aadi](#): > > Playing devil’s advocate against OP. One reason I believe why people call homosexuals unnatural is because they are incapable of reproducing. and reproduction is one of the natural things for survival (strictly thinking from a evolution perspective). You can call a lot of things unnatural. But the implied premise is that, [if it’s unnatural, it’s wrong](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_nature). And it’s trivially easy to disprove that premise. A quick check on Google actually has “monogamy” as the highest result looking for “is unnatural.” Would these people argue there is something wrong with monogamy? ---
**Author:** ![SDarbo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@SDarbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SDarbo)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2014, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-is-unnatural/664031/314 "2014-11-09T14:58:59Z")
Homosexuality gets this question/objection about unnaturalness more than any other topic, possibly even a hundred fold more than whatever the second most topic is that concerns people about unnaturalness. Cloning as second maybe or surgically implanting dear antlers onto fish? I’m kind of feeling that the unnatural dialogue about homosexuality is often an attempt to make one’s personal gut reaction that homosexuality is creepy or repugnant into something that is based on a solid principle. It also might be a way in some cases that people want to feel that they aren’t personally moralists. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2014, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-is-unnatural/664031/315 "2014-11-09T15:40:40Z")
> [@SDarbo](#): > > Homosexuality gets this question/objection about unnaturalness more than any other topic, possibly even a hundred fold more than whatever the second most topic is that concerns people about unnaturalness. As ever, I’ll note that my wife’s unnatural c-section saved a life when natural childbirth would’ve been lethal; for some reason, that doesn’t seem to concern anybody – least of all, me; put me, and her, and our kid, down for _unnatural, yay!_ ---
**Author:** ![aadi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8baadc/32.png) [@aadi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aadi)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2014, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-is-unnatural/664031/316 "2014-11-09T18:47:24Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > And if I, as a straight male, announce my fervent desire to marry a woman who happens to be incapable of reproducing – a post-menopausal woman, say – would you declare me to be unnatural? Given that she’s incapable of reproducing _regardless,_ is it unnatural for her to have sex with me, or for her to have sex with another woman, or what? By nature, a woman is supposed to hit menopause by 40s. So if a woman does not, that is an unnatural occurrence. How is marrying a menopausal woman unnatural? Sorry, I dont see what you are trying to say. If you have sex with such a woman, that is not unnatural because your sexual desires have naturally aroused so as to engage in such an act. For middle-aged adults of human species, this is a natural thing. I am open for changing my views, but I believe these are rhetorical questions and I do not clearly understand your point. What I was trying to say was from a species perspective. It is natural for the human species to reproduce. So if homosexuals do not, they are deemed as “unnatural”. Now that I am re-thinking of my own statement, I think I am using the word “unnatural” as “atypical”. Being homosexual or not reproducing is not wrong or immoral, just atypical. ---
**Author:** ![aadi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8baadc/32.png) [@aadi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aadi)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2014, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-is-unnatural/664031/317 "2014-11-09T18:48:42Z")
> [@Canadjun](#): > > So, do you want to ban condoms? No. I do not understand your point. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2014, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-is-unnatural/664031/318 "2014-11-09T18:52:59Z")
> [@aadi](#): > > By nature, a woman is supposed to hit menopause by 40s. So if a woman does not, that is an unnatural occurrence. How is marrying a menopausal woman unnatural? Sorry, I dont see what you are trying to say. If you have sex with such a woman, that is not unnatural because your sexual desires have naturally aroused so as to engage in such an act. For middle-aged adults of human species, this is a natural thing. I am open for changing my views, but I believe these are rhetorical questions and I do not clearly understand your point. > > What I was trying to say was from a species perspective. It is natural for the human species to reproduce. So if homosexuals do not, they are deemed as “unnatural”. Now that I am re-thinking of my own statement, I think I am using the word “unnatural” as “atypical”. Being homosexual or not reproducing is not wrong or immoral, just atypical. Except that we see same gender sex all over the animal kingdom. Watch a troop of bonobos sometime. It’s pretty much all sex, all the time, regardless of he partner. So, it may be “atypical” in the sense that it is a minority behavior, but so is left handedness and goofy-footedness, perfect pitch, synesthesia, autism, IQ above 110, etc. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2014, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-is-unnatural/664031/319 "2014-11-09T19:01:26Z")
> [@aadi](#): > > By nature, a woman is supposed to hit menopause by 40s. So if a woman does not, that is an unnatural occurrence. How is marrying a menopausal woman unnatural? Sorry, I dont see what you are trying to say. If you have sex with such a woman, that is not unnatural because your sexual desires have naturally aroused so as to engage in such an act. For middle-aged adults of human species, this is a natural thing. I am open for changing my views, but I believe these are rhetorical questions and I do not clearly understand your point. My point is that if I – as a male – have sex with such a woman every day for the rest of her life, (a) no reproduction is going to ensue, and (b) you call it natural. And if I instead have sex with a male every day, (a) no reproduction is going to ensue, and (b) you call it unnatural. > [@](#): > > What I was trying to say was from a species perspective. It is natural for the human species to reproduce. So if homosexuals do not, they are deemed as “unnatural”. Again, you could swap in _‘a dude and a post-menopausal woman’_ and write that same sentence to reach that same “unnatural” conclusion; the logic would be identical. ---
**Author:** ![Canadjun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/76d3ee/32.png) [@Canadjun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Canadjun)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2014, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-is-unnatural/664031/320 "2014-11-09T19:01:33Z")
> [@aadi](#): > > No. I do not understand your point. You mentioned homosexuals as unnatural because they are incapable of reproducing. Using a condom is an effective way to prevent reproducing as well. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-is-unnatural/664031.md?page=15) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-is-unnatural/664031.md?page=17)