# Homosexuality is 'unnatural' **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 20, 2013, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-is-unnatural/664031 "2013-07-20T13:42:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2013, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-is-unnatural/664031/101 "2013-07-21T00:43:19Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Doesn’t matter. Evolution, God, both, neither. The fact is that they are complementary. And so what? Evolution, god, both, neither also resulted in humans engaging in mouth-to-mouth kissing, caresssing with the hands, penis-to-mammary contact, penis-to-mouth contact, penis-to-anus contact, vulva-to-mouth contact, hand-to-penis contact, vulva-to-mouth contact … how are these pairs any less “complementary”? Sure, they don’t result in pregnancy, but of what relevance is that? ---
**Author:** ![yorick73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/b5a626/32.png) [@yorick73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yorick73)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2013, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-is-unnatural/664031/102 "2013-07-21T00:44:41Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > I don’t know why you’d bother refuting the “unnatural” argument. Animals don’t learn calculus, cook their food, or brush their teeth. Until fairly recently\*, we didn’t do any of those things either. Does that mean we shouldn’t? > > \*in biological terms. I’ve been brushing my teeth my whole life. The ability to brush our teeth is what separates us from animals 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2013, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-is-unnatural/664031/103 "2013-07-21T00:49:30Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Tell me, do you think that, generally, it is more natural, less natural, or equally naturally for a penis to be in a vagina as opposed to an anus? This question has absolutely zero meaning, > [@magellan01](#): > > Is there not a goal for the species to continue itself? And that it evolves to do just that? No, there is no such goal. Evolution happens. Period. There is no goal, no purpose, no impetus. If a behavior or a physical feature does not create a disadvantage to survival until spawning, then it continues to exist until the species dies out for some other reason. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2013, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-is-unnatural/664031/104 "2013-07-21T00:53:31Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Is there not a goal for the species to continue itself? And that it evolves to do just that? Sometimes. Sometimes the species dies out. I think we can pretty much take it as read that people are reproducing at a sufficient rate to avoid that for the time being. ---
**Author:** ![Smeghead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Smeghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smeghead)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2013, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-is-unnatural/664031/105 "2013-07-21T00:53:42Z")
I’m treating this more as an exercise in logic than a biological argument. Obviously, there is a specific biological function associated with penises, vaginas, and heterosexual sex. That is a trivial point to make. And if you want to claim that sex that doesn’t make use of that function is unnatural. That is an argument that is logically sound and holds water. If that’s what you want to argue, go for it. You won’t get any disagreement from me. However, the logical corollary to that point is that “unnatural”, as a descriptor, therefore applies to ANY form of sexual activity that does not have reproduction as its goal. Again - if you’re willing to accept that consequence as part of your stance, then go for it. Perhaps that is magellan’s point of view. He hasn’t yet clarified if it is or not; at least not that I’ve seen. However, it you’re going to claim, for instance, that heterosexual sex while using birth control is “natural” and homosexual sex is “unnatural”, then I will say that logically, that’s a very difficult point of view to justify. ---
**Author:** ![Hershele\_Ostropoler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e47c2d/32.png) [@Hershele\_Ostropoler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hershele_Ostropoler)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2013, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-is-unnatural/664031/106 "2013-07-21T00:56:41Z")
Complementarity is really a side-issue because, as has been pointed out, “homosexual” means something different from “dislikes penis-in-vagina sex.” I don’t think that whether the attraction is natural is either an easy question to answer or politically or legally important. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2013, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-is-unnatural/664031/107 "2013-07-21T00:59:41Z")
I’m not against homosexuality in any way, and quite enjoy engaging in heterosexual anal and oral sex. But people arguing that anal sex is every bit as natural as vaginal sex are nuts. That the vagina self-lubricates while the anus doesn’t is compelling evidence. (Also, the “wrongness” of it is part of what makes it so hot, for both parties.) > [@Smeghead](#): > > what I am saying is that YOU have failed to satisfactorily explain why the latter is more “natural” than the former. Pulling your quotes out of the quote box to answer individually. **is nonreproductive vaginal sex as “unnatural” as homosexual sex?** No, because the vagina self-lubricates. **What about heterosexual anal sex?** Yes. Deliciously so. **But really? Is that what’s behind the whole “homosexual sex is unnatural” belief? Because they have to buy lube instead of making it themselves?** Yes, exactly. **what about heterosexual vaginal sex that requires the help of artificial lubrication?** That’s a symptom of dysfunction, either something physically wrong or something psychologically wrong with that sexual encounter. **What about heterosexual anal sex? Are those more unnatural that homosexual sex? Less unnatural? Why?** Neither more nor less. Both are the same amount of hotly unnatural. **If a man has a really sweaty anus that acts as natural lubricant, is it then natural for him to be penetrated by another penis?** Does that work? I’m unconvinced, but wouldn’t completely rule it out. **And what about lesbians, anyway?** Not unnatural in any way, short of assplay. Essentially, it boils down to penetrative anal sex is less natural than oral or vaginal sex simply because the anus has no natural lubricant while both the vagina and mouth do. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2013, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-is-unnatural/664031/108 "2013-07-21T01:06:56Z")
> [@EllisDee](#): > > I’m not against homosexuality in any way, and quite enjoy engaging in heterosexual anal and oral sex. But people arguing that anal sex is every bit as natural as vaginal sex are nuts. That the vagina self-lubricates while the anus doesn’t is compelling evidence. (Also, the “wrongness” of it is part of what makes it so hot, for both parties.) People mean a lot of different things when they call something “natural,” but I believe you are the first person I’ve ever met who included “self-lubricating” as part of the definition. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2013, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-is-unnatural/664031/109 "2013-07-21T01:08:53Z")
1. Survival does not require that every single member of a species pass on its genes to the next generation. 2. What is more numerical? 100 or 25? ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2013, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-is-unnatural/664031/110 "2013-07-21T01:09:58Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > People mean a lot of different things when they call something “natural,” but I believe you are the first person I’ve ever met who included “self-lubricating” as part of the definition. Why are you being deliberately obtuse? ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2013, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-is-unnatural/664031/111 "2013-07-21T01:18:58Z")
Getting back to the heart of the OP: > [@Mr.Kobayashi](#): > > If you ask most people who are opposed to gay marriage, or simply homosexuality in general, why they oppose it they with inevitably say that homosexuality is somehow ‘not natural’. I rather like the example given upthread. When confronted with _it’s not natural_, respond with _neither is driving a car_. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2013, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-is-unnatural/664031/112 "2013-07-21T01:29:40Z")
> [@EllisDee](#): > > Why are you being deliberately obtuse? It’s not deliberate. I’m genuinely not understanding what connection “self lubricating” has to do with something being “more” natural. It’s certainly more _convenient_ that we evolved that particular adaptation, but we might very well have evolved with dry vaginas that needed to be lubricated with saliva before coitus. Saying that its more natural to have evolved that way is, at best, incoherent. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2013, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-is-unnatural/664031/113 "2013-07-21T02:15:23Z")
> [@yorick73](#): > > Well, it suggests that the word “unnatural” has no meaning whatsoever. I already said this. It has a definition (it expresses a concept), but it doesn’t have anything close to a logical or well-defined meaning when it’s actually applied to nature. > [@](#): > > I suppose you could say that some people are opposed to homosexuality because it is not normal. And they often say it’s unnatural. The statement has nothing to do with how ‘natural’ it is; it’s an expression of disapproval that they phrase in terms of the natural word to attach some false authority to the claim. > [@Hershele\_Ostropoler](#): > > Complementarity is really a side-issue because, as has been pointed out, “homosexual” means something different from “dislikes penis-in-vagina sex.” I don’t think that whether the attraction is natural is either an easy question to answer or politically or legally important. We did skip right over that point. Homosexuality isn’t a type of sex act, it’s a sexual orientation. For some reason these sorts of discussions always return to one particular sex act. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2013, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-is-unnatural/664031/114 "2013-07-21T02:29:10Z")
> [@Hershele\_Ostropoler](#): > > Complementarity is really a side-issue because, as has been pointed out, “homosexual” means something different from “dislikes penis-in-vagina sex.” Or perhaps more to the point, it means something different from “likes penis-in-anus sex”. I’m a bit puzzled by the fixation on anal sex in this thread. Even accepting for the sake of argument that penis-in-vagina sex is natural and penis-in-anus sex isn’t, the latter is neither universal among nor exclusive to homosexuals. For reasons that I hope are obvious, it’s unusual for two women to have penis-in-anus sex with each other. While two men possess all the necessary equipment, there are gay men who’ve never had anal sex. And, as the graph on page 9 of [this CDC report (PDF)](http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nhsr/nhsr036.pdf) shows, plenty of people _have_ had heterosexual anal sex – more than a third of American women ages 25-44, and nearly half of American men in the same age group. There are in fact far more American adults who’ve had heterosexual anal sex at least once in their lives than there are American adults who’ve ever had any type of sex with a same-sex partner. Yet I’ve never heard anyone suggest that heterosexuality is unnatural just because heterosexuals engage in anal sex with each other. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2013, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-is-unnatural/664031/115 "2013-07-21T02:47:41Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > I’m a bit puzzled by the fixation on anal sex in this thread. Like I was just saying, you’re right. But this same thing happens in every single discussion of this topic. It does tell you where people’s minds are on the issue. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2013, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-is-unnatural/664031/116 "2013-07-21T03:12:36Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Like I was just saying, you’re right. But this same thing happens in every single discussion of this topic. It does tell you where people’s minds are on the issue. It seems to be a **fundamental** issue for some. ---
**Author:** ![Antinor01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecae2f/32.png) [@Antinor01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Antinor01)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2013, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-is-unnatural/664031/117 "2013-07-21T04:53:31Z")
Shouldn’t the big question be, why does it matter? Cell phones, computers, eyeglasses and countless other things are unnatural. Why does it matter if men having sex with each other is natural or not? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2013, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-is-unnatural/664031/118 "2013-07-21T05:04:15Z")
> [@Smeghead](#): > > How is “wiener + hoo-hah” any more naturally complementary than “wiener + bum hole”? The hoo-hah, unlike the bum hole, secretes a natural lubricant. ---
**Author:** ![Antinor01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecae2f/32.png) [@Antinor01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Antinor01)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2013, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-is-unnatural/664031/119 "2013-07-21T05:09:16Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > The hoo-hah, unlike the bum hole, secretes a natural lubricant. To be fair, the ass often has a lubricant. Just not one most people care for. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2013, 5:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-is-unnatural/664031/120 "2013-07-21T05:33:29Z")
> [@Antinor01](#): > > Shouldn’t the big question be, why does it matter? Cell phones, computers, eyeglasses and countless other things are unnatural. Why does it matter if men having sex with each other is natural or not? Because a lot of of people use the “it’s unnatural” argument to mean that type of sex is wrong and that same-sex relationships are wrong or just lesser than heterosexual relationships. The concept itself is irrelevant. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-is-unnatural/664031.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-is-unnatural/664031.md?page=7)