# homosexuals in the military **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 10, 2002, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuals-in-the-military/141710 "2002-12-10T04:47:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2002, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuals-in-the-military/141710/41 "2002-12-10T16:39:14Z")
I agree with **Poly** , and I agree with the OP. I do think that the reasons **JD** perceives gays to be bitter are not completely incomprehensible. We all tend to oversimplify, of course–it’s in our nature to group and generalize. That tendency, coupled with the fact that her most direct exposure to open gays has come (I believe) online (an exaggerated medium anyway) and in response to her Biblically-based opposition to homosexuality . . . well, I can sort of understand why she might choose to see all gays as bitter, in a way. It’s not much different from an arch-neocon saying that all Democrats are liberals and all liberals are socialists, or a kneejerk lefty claiming that Republicans all hate the poor. I don’t agree with it, but I can understand it, in a Bizarro-world way. ---
**Author:** ![IzzyR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/2acd7d/32.png) [@IzzyR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IzzyR)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2002, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuals-in-the-military/141710/42 "2002-12-10T16:52:07Z")
Part of the reason that gays on this board might be perceived as bitter is that the bitter ones are more likely to be vocal about gay issues, and more identifiable as gay. There are many gays on this board who are not as impassioned about these matters, but a lot of people probably don’t realize that they are gay altogether - I know I’ve been surprised a couple of times myself. ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2002, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuals-in-the-military/141710/43 "2002-12-10T16:54:20Z")
flyboy88 > [@](#): > > I admit the vast majority of military people would love to weed out homosexuals, but from what I understand, President Clinton implemented the “Don’t ask, don’t tell” policy. During the 1992 campaign, Bill Clinton promised to drop the DoD regulations requiring the separation of homosexual personnel. When he got into office, conservatives in both parties (burn in Hell, Sam Nunn) played the “we can’t let our boys shower with homosexuals on submarines” and attempted to codify the regulations into law. After caving to the bigots, CLinton signed into law the “compromise” provision known as “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell.” BTW, the third part of that, which the military seems to forget about, is “Don’t Pursue.” Personally, I am opposed to anyone’s serving in the military anywhere, any time. But the discharge of these linguists at a time when we can’t open a newspaper without reading of the latest threat from Arabic-speaking people points up the complete and utter lunacy of this policy. I submit that should one give “the vast majority” of military personnel the choice between being killed in a fiery explosion triggered by Arabic-speaking terrorists and having a homosexual see their genitals in the shower, they would one and all choose to show the queers their goods. > **[Modern Military Association of America](https://modernmilitary.org/)** > > Who We Are > Formed through the merger of the American Military Partner Association and OutServe-SLDN, the Modern Military Association of America is the nation's largest non-profit organization dedicated to advancing fairness and equality for the... ---
**Author:** ![Helen\_s\_Eidolon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Helen\_s\_Eidolon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Helen_s_Eidolon)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2002, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuals-in-the-military/141710/44 "2002-12-10T17:02:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by cuauhtemoc \* > \*\*And **vanilla** , have you seen [this](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=144196) thread, where certain people employ specious reasoning to justify the ban on gays and lesbians in the military? \*\* Maybe you should read the thread more carefully. I don’t think there was a single person posting in it that thought gays should be kept out of the military. ---
**Author:** ![flyboy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/4da419/32.png) [@flyboy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flyboy)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2002, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuals-in-the-military/141710/45 "2002-12-10T18:04:58Z")
**Otto** , thanks for the background. But what I still see is Clinton implementing the policy in question. Also, out of curiosity, where are you coming from when you say the military pursues this kind of thing? FTR, I’m not defending the policy. I’m defending the military against attacks which I feel are unwarranted. Folks can rail at the military as much as they want to about the attitude, but don’t do it about the policy. Pressure the civilian side of the house. Complaints will actually do some good, I think, there. If the Secretary of Defense or the Commander-in-Chief scraps the policy, then I’ll happily go along with it. Until then, I’ll gladly prosecute or judge someone who’s violated this policy, just as I’d expect the same to be done to me if I knowingly violated a DoD policy. **TAOS** , maybe I was misinterpreting your post. I’m seeing the implication that due to a shortage of linguists, the magical, riddle-solving message containing unambiguous, actionable intel wasn’t deciphered until 9/12. This clearly wasn’t the case. If I’m misreading you, I apologize. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2002, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuals-in-the-military/141710/46 "2002-12-10T18:15:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by gobear \* > \*\*I also gotta give mad props to **JerseyDiamond** for her support of the gay Arabic translator. The “bitter gays” comment doesn’t faze me because, we do (or did) have some bitter gay people posting. **JD** was making a positive, pro-gay statement and she should be commended, not pilloried by the Parsing the Syntax Patrol. Well done, **JD**. > > Gobear (not bitter, but more lemon fresh) \*\* I figured that she was referring to people like **Kirkland**. **gobera** , that would make you more SOUR!!! Sheesh, people! ---
**Author:** ![cuauhtemoc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecb155/32.png) [@cuauhtemoc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cuauhtemoc)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2002, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuals-in-the-military/141710/47 "2002-12-10T18:46:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by LaurAnge \* > \*\*Maybe you should read the thread more carefully. I don’t think there was a single person posting in it that thought gays should be kept out of the military. \*\* Yes, it’s true that none of the posters to that thread actively supported antigay discrimination, but **vanilla** asked about why people think gays in the military would be a bad thing, and I thought that link would help. > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by MsRobyn in the other thread_ > **The military still has a lot of people who believe that homosexuality is a) a sin (a la His4Ever); b) that it is a choice; and c) that gays are predators out to get and “convert” straights. You know it’s bullshit, and I know it’s bullshit. Unfortunately, your average 18-year-old recruit from the sticks doesn’t think it’s bullshit. Forced integration would invite violence against gays and people perceived to be gay.** > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Narile in the other thread_ > **Fraternization between troops. The best arguement I have heard against open gays in the military is the can of worms caused by relationships that might exist between members in the line of command. It is already a problem w/regards to women in the millitary, and such relationships are pure poison to a unit. I know a lot of gays can be professional, and keep away from such affairs (No pun intended), but the few who can’t will cause a lot of damage.** And finally the whole discussion about showers, which I think is too idiotic to go into. ---
**Author:** ![Green\_Bean](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/green_bean/32/1760_2.png) [@Green\_Bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Green_Bean)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2002, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuals-in-the-military/141710/48 "2002-12-10T18:54:36Z")
Have any of you read _Conduct Unbecoming_ by Randy Shilts? In it, he argues that the military has been more stringent about enforcing its anti-gay policies in times when they are shrinking the forces, and more lax at times when they need people. He provides many examples of people who were open about being gay, but allowed to stay because it was wartime or because they had needed skills. The actions of the military in this are contrary to Shilts’ assertions. I have no basis by which to judge Shilts’ arguments because I don’t really know too much about the military. Does someone more knowledgable want to address this? And regarding **JerseyDiamond** –I think that it’s a lot easier for some people to just classify those that they disagree with as horned devils or something. It’s terrible logic–“Jersey thinks homosexuality is a sin, so she must hate all homosexuals and is a bad person besides.” No! I’ve never discussed the issue with her directly, but I’m, willing to bet that she has mixed feelings about the whole homosexuality issue. This thread is evidence. She is just a regular person, like the rest of us, trying to square her ideals with her reality. I disagree vehemently with her about a lot of things, especially with regard to religion. But I know that we agree on far more than we disagree on. This board tends to magnify differences of opinion, because that’s what makes for interesting discussions. Threads where everybody agrees usually die quick deaths. Anyway, I’m rambling, but I hate to see knee-jerk reactions of any kind. ---
**Author:** ![Esprix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprix/32/7899_2.png) [@Esprix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprix)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2002, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuals-in-the-military/141710/49 "2002-12-10T19:17:07Z")
I agree that this soldier was the epitome of grace. I agree that this soldier broke the known rules, and should have been punished accordingly. I agree that the ban against GLBT people in the military should be lifted. I agree that it is nice that **Jersey** supports this solider and supports lifting the ban. I agree that the “bitter gays” was a backhanded insult. That is all. Esprix ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2002, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuals-in-the-military/141710/50 "2002-12-10T19:26:44Z")
flyboy88 > [@](#): > > But what I still see is Clinton implementing the policy in question. Um, OK, not really sure what this has to do with anything but OK. FTR, it was on Reagan’s watch that the former DoD directive went into effect. Prior to that each branch had its own specific regs and enforcement varied widely. > [@](#): > > Also, out of curiosity, where are you coming from when you say the military pursues this kind of thing? The definitive books on the topic are Shilts’ “Conduct Unbecoming” and Allen Berube’s “Coming Out Under Fire” (which focuses more closely on WWII). Each book includes reams of material on the anti-gay witch hunts the miltary has conducted over the decades since the policy was put in place. Chilling stuff, and an outrage to think of the money wasted and the lives destroyed going after people whom the military itself acknowledges are not only not bad soldiers but are in many cases among the best. > [@](#): > > If the Secretary of Defense or the Commander-in-Chief scraps the policy, then I’ll happily go along with it. The only way at this point to rescind the policy is for it to be repealed by Congress or declared unconstitutional by the courts, neither of which are particularly likely in the current administration. > [@](#): > > Until then, I’ll gladly prosecute or judge someone who’s violated this policy, just as I’d expect the same to be done to me if I knowingly violated a DoD policy. Well, I’d hope you wouldn’t be happy about destroying someone’s life for no legitimate reason… Grean Bean > [@](#): > > I have no basis by which to judge Shilts’ arguments because I don’t really know too much about the military. Does someone more knowledgable want to address this? How about [Shilts himself](http://www.davidclemens.com/gaymilitary/canfodder.htm)? In this isolated incident the military is going contrary to the trend but the numbers tend to support the assertion. Interestingly, there’s been a small uptick in people self-identifying specifically to get out according to some sources (offline) I’ve seen. ---
**Author:** ![iampunha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/74df32/32.png) [@iampunha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iampunha)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2002, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuals-in-the-military/141710/51 "2002-12-10T19:47:48Z")
If it helps anyone, here’s another person who was thinking “Oh please let’s don’t have this be another screed” and was pleasantly surprised to see **Jersey Diamond** ’s heartfelt post. And then **half-hearted** (because he never does summon much of anything even at his worst) had to come in and try to bait **JD**. {{{ **JD** }}} He don’t know you, hon. Hell, I don’t know you much at all either, but what I _do_ know (or what at least seems rather like the case in this thread) is that you really have no problem with people who are gay. (Whatever sexual actions they might take is another thread.) I think the “bitter gays” thing is not meant to be insulting but, especially in light of some recent (and not-so-recent) posters we’ve had, indicative of what some gay people look like when they focus solely on one aspect of a person (that aspect being the perceived/real “anti-gay” facet). However, I _don’t_ think she meant to include every homosexual in that subcategory. I think that covers everything… ---
**Author:** ![UncleBill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/d26b3c/32.png) [@UncleBill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBill)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2002, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuals-in-the-military/141710/52 "2002-12-10T20:31:06Z")
FWIW, “Health and Comfort” Inspections held at 3am are, in my humble opinion and experience, meant to catch something that is suspected but not proven. This has always been a thinly veiled, but veiled nonetheless, tactic to find drugs, booze, or other forbidden items. The folks who pulled the Health and Comfort Inspection were pursuing, but will never be called on it. ---
**Author:** ![Green\_Bean](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/green_bean/32/1760_2.png) [@Green\_Bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Green_Bean)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2002, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuals-in-the-military/141710/53 "2002-12-10T21:00:42Z")
**Otto** : I’m not sure what you mean. The link that you provided is basically a capsule version of _Conduct Unbecoming_ so it can’t serve as corroborating evidence for the book. But if anyone’s interested, it’s a good summary of Shilts’ arguments. ---
**Author:** ![Mars\_Horizon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mars_horizon/32/2804_2.png) [@Mars\_Horizon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mars_Horizon)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2002, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuals-in-the-military/141710/54 "2002-12-10T21:48:00Z")
Speaking as one who is sickened by both the treatment of gays in our society and the treatment of **Jersey** by **hh** , I’d like to offer up that I too found the hair on my neck rising when I first saw this thread title coupled with the OP’s screen name. And once I read the OP, I was both heartened by the compassion she showed, and saddened that I had jumped to conclusions. I am convinced that if our Conservative Christian posters and our Fabulously Gay posters could sit down over a beer (root beer for some of you and you know who you are!) and talk things out, that both sides might learn that neither is quite as rotten and evil as had been previously supposed. Perhaps that is because I count both as some of my dearest friends and family. ---
**Author:** ![Esprix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprix/32/7899_2.png) [@Esprix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprix)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2002, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuals-in-the-military/141710/55 "2002-12-10T21:55:49Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by **iampunha** _ > > … what I _do_ know… is that you really have no problem with people who are gay. (Whatever sexual actions they might take is another thread.) Ugh. Do we really need to review how inherently ridiculous and patronizing this is? [It’s been done](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=49858), even if only by showing how ridiculous the opposite sounds. Esprix ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2002, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuals-in-the-military/141710/56 "2002-12-10T22:23:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by robertliguori \* > \*\*Huh? So what if it is a rule? If Bush accidentally invades Canada and declares their population to be enemy combatants, will you start shooting them? \*\* Yes. He is my Commander-In-Chief. Contrary to popular belief, folks, Bush is actually a rational person, unless of course you don’t agree with his politics, which gives you all carte blanche to insult and demean a man who is a Yale graduate and was governor of one of the largest states in the Union.That’s not even to mention that the people of the United States would hang him from the nearest flagpole without a DAMN good reason for giving that order. Who, incidentally, is also maintaining a policy that has existed for at least 100 years, if not since the US was founded. Any other questions from the peanut gallery? If so, I hope they’re better than that one. And as far as the thread goes, it sucks that this guy got dismissed, but rules are rules. If you decide independently to do something you know to be illegal, does that not make you responsible for the consequences? I really dislike this policy. I’d like to see it changed. But until that day, this is the way it has to be. Now, of course, you’re all gonna bust my chops over this, because I must be a homophobe. That’s not the case. What I am is a person who understands exactly what the UCMJ means and who understands what happens when those laws are broken. Incidentally, I believe that the law that governs homosexuals in the military is Article 125, the one about sodomy, which is also a law fairly common among the individual states as well. Or is it something else? I dunno, but I would think Article 125 has something to do with it. Why not more properly put the responsibility where it belongs, on the politicians who make the rules, whom you elect time and time again? That’s where the onus of this argument should really be. Most of us average military members could care less what the rule is. We’re too busy doing our jobs to peek through windows and rat people out. ---
**Author:** ![Homebrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Homebrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Homebrew)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2002, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuals-in-the-military/141710/57 "2002-12-10T22:37:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Airman Doors, USAF \* > \*\*Most of us average military members could care less what the rule is. We’re too busy doing our jobs to peek through windows and rat people out. \*\* Tell that to Pfc. Barry L. Winchell. Oh, you can’t. He’s dead thanks to his violent co-service members. ---
**Author:** ![Homebrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Homebrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Homebrew)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2002, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuals-in-the-military/141710/58 "2002-12-10T22:38:42Z")
[More info.](http://www.datalounge.com/datalounge/news/record.html?record=4945) ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2002, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuals-in-the-military/141710/59 "2002-12-10T22:53:36Z")
Note my use of word “most”. Do most civilians murder homosexuals? Or for that matter, give a rat’s ass about someone’s particular sexuality? No. So it is in the military. ---
**Author:** ![Tanaqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/3bc359/32.png) [@Tanaqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tanaqui)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2002, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuals-in-the-military/141710/60 "2002-12-10T23:23:40Z")
> [@](#): > > Fuck off Tanaqui. Fucking assbag. My first flame! Almost as good as my first pitting… Was I too harsh? I probably shouldn’t have voiced the first thing that ran through my head on reading the OP, true. It’s hardly surprising that the “I don’t hate gays, I just hate their _lifestyle_” contingent will jump on this as further proof that the world is against them and their oh-so-inoffensive views. But this topic has been discussed ALREADY. There is a thread about this exact case. It is an OLD, old subject. Why do we need another thread started on it? Maybe because it’s a convenient way for this person to compliment a gay person on one hand and insult gay people in general on the other? See, until this thread I was perfectly willing to give **Jersey\_Diamond** the benefit of the doubt. I don’t know her, I’ve never directly talked to her (though I have followed some of the train wrecks concerning her little cadre and seen her comments.) But if _anyone_ can give me another reason for the snide little “bitter” comment, I’ll be overjoyed to hear it. And I will sincerely apologize to **Jersey\_Diamond**. Until then, I’m out of this trainwreck-in-the-making. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuals-in-the-military/141710.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuals-in-the-military/141710.md?page=4)