# homosexuals; what do you want/expect from me, a Christian **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 21, 2003, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuals-what-do-you-want-expect-from-me-a-christian/162953 "2003-03-21T01:17:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2003, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuals-what-do-you-want-expect-from-me-a-christian/162953/1 "2003-03-21T01:17:58Z")
I suppose I could anticipate the short answer, which might be “leave me alone”, and that’s fine, as far as it goes, however… We live in an unbalanced and unfair world, some (perhaps much) of this is perpetuated by Christians and their organisations. What do you want/expect me to do about that? If I disassociate myself from them, then how can I do anything to change it?, if I stay, will you take that as tacit _approval_ on my part, anyway, what can _ **I** _ do about it all? ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2003, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuals-what-do-you-want-expect-from-me-a-christian/162953/2 "2003-03-21T01:19:47Z")
(given that I feel I cannot wilfully abandon my beliefs) ---
**Author:** ![ResIpsaLoquitor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b3f665/32.png) [@ResIpsaLoquitor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ResIpsaLoquitor)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2003, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuals-what-do-you-want-expect-from-me-a-christian/162953/3 "2003-03-21T01:32:09Z")
This is a question that’s bothered me since shortly after I joined these boards. I’d like to tack onto **Mangetout** ’s question: what do you want from me, _in light of my beliefs_? I realize this will vary from Christian to Christian. If it helps, I’m a Catholic who pretty much follows the magisterium. ---
**Author:** ![BrightNShiny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@BrightNShiny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrightNShiny)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2003, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuals-what-do-you-want-expect-from-me-a-christian/162953/4 "2003-03-21T01:34:22Z")
There are gay people who are religious. Being Christian doesn’t in and of itself somehow make you “anti-gay.” So, IMO, no gay person should condemn you just for belonging to the church of your choice. I don’t even mind if someone wishes to debate me on the morality of homosexuality, or if they tell me I’m immoral for being homosexual. That’s their opinion, so be it. What irks me is when people attempt to inflict their religious beliefs on me using the legal system (such as prohibiting gay marriage) or when they try to use legal or extra-legal means to cause harm to someone just because they are gay. Some people use a religious justification for these actions, and to me, your right to religion stops where my rights begin. ---
**Author:** ![Ariadne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/71c47a/32.png) [@Ariadne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ariadne)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2003, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuals-what-do-you-want-expect-from-me-a-christian/162953/5 "2003-03-21T01:38:10Z")
Gay marriage should be possible in all fifty states. Gays should be able to adopt children (someone who really has to think about whether or not they want kids will be a good parent). Simple enough. And, of course, the same job opportunities as if they were straight. Considering that we don’t live in a theocracy, it is very frustrating that Christianity’s prejudice against gays keeps them from living normal lives. ---
**Author:** ![ThoughtPolice](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecae2f/32.png) [@ThoughtPolice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThoughtPolice)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2003, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuals-what-do-you-want-expect-from-me-a-christian/162953/6 "2003-03-21T02:23:23Z")
Ariadne, you posted: “Christianity’s prejudice against gays keeps them from living normal lives.” If a Christian is really a Christian, he/she must condemn homosexuality because the Bible strongly condemns it. It isn’t a prejudice. I have no prejudice against homosexuals, and I am a Christian. However, I must condemn the acts done by homosexuals because the Bible condemns it. ---
**Author:** ![Freyr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/freyr/32/5763_2.png) [@Freyr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freyr)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2003, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuals-what-do-you-want-expect-from-me-a-christian/162953/7 "2003-03-21T02:30:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mangetout \* > \*\*I suppose I could anticipate the short answer, which might be “leave me alone”, and that’s fine, as far as it goes, however… > > We live in an unbalanced and unfair world, some (perhaps much) of this is perpetuated by Christians and their organisations. > > What do you want/expect me to do about that? If I disassociate myself from them, then how can I do anything to change it?, if I stay, will you take that as tacit _approval_ on my part, anyway, what can _ **I** _ do about it all? \*\* It would be nice, if you could remind some of your more strident brethren (male and female) that while there _may_ be support in Scripture for their views of homosexuality, their viewpoint is certainly not the only one. Moderate to liberal views of homosexuality are as equally supported by Scripture. What bothers me most is not that Fundamentalist viewpoint, but often the silence of the Moderate and Liberal Christians, especially on the national level. ---
**Author:** ![Ariadne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/71c47a/32.png) [@Ariadne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ariadne)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2003, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuals-what-do-you-want-expect-from-me-a-christian/162953/8 "2003-03-21T02:53:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ThoughtPolice \* > \*\*Ariadne, you posted: > “Christianity’s prejudice against gays keeps them from living normal lives.” > > If a Christian is really a Christian, he/she must condemn homosexuality because the Bible strongly condemns it. It isn’t a prejudice. I have no prejudice against homosexuals, and I am a Christian. However, I must condemn the acts done by homosexuals because the Bible condemns it. \*\* Do you follow all of Leviticus? Do you actually follow all the contradictory rules in the Bible? Anyway, it doesn’t matter what you condemn or don’t, why is your religion affecting laws that other people live by? Gays simply want the right to marry (with all the inheritance rights, insurance benefits, etc.) that goes with it. The Supreme Court has said that marriage is a fundamental human right, but that doesn’t seem to apply to gays because of Christian prejudice. Go to your church and condemn whatever you like, but keep your religion out of the government that we all must live under. ---
**Author:** ![Severian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/49beb7/32.png) [@Severian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Severian)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2003, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuals-what-do-you-want-expect-from-me-a-christian/162953/9 "2003-03-21T02:58:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ThoughtPolice \* > \*\*Ariadne, you posted: > “Christianity’s prejudice against gays keeps them from living normal lives.” > > If a Christian is really a Christian, he/she must condemn homosexuality because the Bible strongly condemns it. It isn’t a prejudice. I have no prejudice against homosexuals, and I am a Christian. However, I must condemn the acts done by homosexuals because the Bible condemns it. \*\* You can’t possibly follow every single decree written in the Bible, so you must choose to follow this one just as you pick and choose from the others. ---
**Author:** ![Darwins\_Finch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darwins_finch/32/20304_2.png) [@Darwins\_Finch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darwins_Finch)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2003, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuals-what-do-you-want-expect-from-me-a-christian/162953/10 "2003-03-21T03:27:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ThoughtPolice \* > \*\*If a Christian is really a Christian, he/she must condemn homosexuality because the Bible strongly condemns it. It isn’t a prejudice. I have no prejudice against homosexuals, and I am a Christian. However, I must condemn the acts done by homosexuals because the Bible condemns it. \*\* Did Jesus ever condemn homosexuality? I thought Christians were supposed to follow the New Testament, which superceded the Old Testament. So, why does it matter what the laws were in the OT, and moreover why, as others have asked, do you choose to only follow _some_ of those OT rules? ---
**Author:** ![ThoughtPolice](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecae2f/32.png) [@ThoughtPolice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThoughtPolice)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2003, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuals-what-do-you-want-expect-from-me-a-christian/162953/11 "2003-03-21T03:31:17Z")
I don’t have to follow all of the commandments. The Law of Moses does not apply to people today. Yahshua (Jesus) fulfilled the Law of Moses when he died on the cross. The Hebrew Bible does not apply to me. I live under the Law of Christ. Certainly, I sin, but I don’t pick and choose what to obey. I do the best I can, and God’s grace will cover my sins. But if I rebel against God - homosexuality is rebellion - then His grace will not cover my sins. I don’t care if homosexuals marry. I’ve never tried to stop it, and I never will. It is rebellion against God, but we have free-will. We can choose to rebel. Use your free-will and marry. I could care less. Pardon the spelling. I am too tired to check it. ---
**Author:** ![Pencil\_Pusher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b38774/32.png) [@Pencil\_Pusher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pencil_Pusher)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2003, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuals-what-do-you-want-expect-from-me-a-christian/162953/12 "2003-03-21T03:38:44Z")
1986 Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, from [http://www.dignityusa.org/1986doctrine/ratzinger.html](http://www.dignityusa.org/1986doctrine/ratzinger.html) > [@](#): > > 1. It is deplorable that homosexual persons have been and are the object of violent malice in speech or in action. Such treatment deserves condemnation from the Church’s pastors wherever it occurs. It reveals a kind of disregard for others which endangers the most fundamental principles of a healthy society. The intrinsic dignity of each person must always be respected in word, in action and in law. > > But the proper reaction to crimes committed against homosexual persons should not be to claim that the homosexual condition is not disordered. > > When such a claim is made and when homosexual activity is consequently condoned, or when civil legislation is introduced to protect behavior to which no one has any conceivable right, neither the Church nor society at large should be surprised when other distorted notions and practices gain ground, and irrational and violent reactions increase. “to which no one has any conceivable right.” Right there is the problem with most Catholics (and most religious folk, for that matter). Just because the Catholics believe a practice is against God’s will, doesn’t mean they should go out and try to push legislation on NON-Catholics to get their agenda across. If they can brainwash their own to act a certain way, more power to them. However, once you start trying to push beliefs on everyone else, I have a problem. The farther you go down the road, the worse it becomes. First you outlaw homosexuality because it is against God’s will. Then you outlaw contraceptives, because it is against God’s will. Then outlaw working on Sundays, because it is against God’s will. Then outlaw people belonging to other religions, because it is against God’s will. Finally, you just set the Church up as the central government and make God’s will the law of the land. Very scary to us non-Christians. So, what can a Christian do about it? Perhaps try to impress on the leadership of the various organizations that “God’s law” cannot be man’s law, and any attempt to legislate “God’s law” is misguided. We live in a pluralistic society, and attempting to prohibit actions by legislation based soley on religious teachings is wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Priam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/77aa72/32.png) [@Priam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Priam)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2003, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuals-what-do-you-want-expect-from-me-a-christian/162953/13 "2003-03-21T03:44:21Z")
I am a lazy man, so I’m simply going to quote from another post of mine along a similar vein and then elaborate. > [@](#): > > I must say the fervor surrounding such a non-issue as sexual orientation astounds me to this very day, because it is ultimately such a completely neutral characteristic. Let me see… where to start > > Disagreements: > > 1. (deleted section) > > 2. “Homosexuality is a sin condemned by the Bible” > > Ok lets break this bad boy down. First off, you can’t simply call for a literal reading of every word and commandment in the Bible, because we’re all in violation of a lot of Leviticus. Along with homosexuality, it condemns the consuming of pork, the wearing of garments with two types of thread, and the touching of a woman during menstruation. All of these, IIRC, are “abomination”. > > So we’ll dump Leviticus and go to Paul. Jesus came down and formed a new covenant with the world that invalidated a lot of rules (hooray!). What about the parts of Paul’s letters which say slaves should obey their masters? Or that women should at no time teach or lead in their church? Or, furthermore, even ask questions within church? > > Lets face it, folks: we read the Bible the way we, or our Churches, wish us to. We read it through a lense of our own reason, emotion, and bias. Using reason, then, what makes homosexuality a sin if we cannot solely use the Good Book to determine such a fact? > > “Marriage is about sanctified, procreative sex!” > > If you’re a Protestant with no issues on contraceptives, this stance is very hard (although not impossible) to pull off. So I’ll assume this statement carries the usual Catholic riders (sex outside of marriage = bad, no contraceptives, etc.) > > You’re right. Gay men will never, within the present bounds of physics and the universe, no matter how many times we have sex with eachother, produce miracle butt babies. It just ain’t gonna happen. > > But then again, a lot of very heterosexual couples can never have kids themselves. Some women have no uterus, some have non-functional ovaries, some men have no/low spermcount, or sperm that won’t swim, and many are simply wonky reproductively. Why can they be married and not I? They are just as effectively infertile. > > “Because a miracle might occur between the man and the woman!” > > Well yes, but a woman with no uterus would need the same kind of miracle a gay man would require: serious circumvention of reality and laws as we know them today. Just because she needs a little less than he does wouldn’t change that simple fact. > > I don’t think anyone’s said the “gay lifestyle” (which I simply define as sleeping with the same gender) is, in and of itself, unhealthy or disordered. So if it hurts neither party, it cannot be considered on par with moral violations such as alcoholism (hurts me), and speeding (potentially hurts everyone else on the road and me. > > Taken just from this assessment, the only thing that holds up is Biblical quoting, but that simply cannot stand alone as enough. If you insist, in spite of this, to view homosexuality as immoral, I would want one thing from you: Equality. I can be different from you and be your peer, and I demand the same rights as you would receive. We have all, gay/straight/bi/queer, been endowed with the inalienable rights of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Do not attempt, though amendments, laws, and courts, to restrict my happiness or liberty. I have the right to search for, and hopefully find, love where I wish it. I have the right to consumate that love physically without legal barriers. I, and whomever I love, have the right to protection from discrimination simply because we love eachother. We should have access to the same rights heterosexual commited couples receive (hospital access, next-of-kin status, tax deductions, etc). In short, we can only enforce our own morals on one person: ourselves. To do anything else is not just, nor is it very Christian at all. Christ, from all I’ve read, never advocated use of law and force to change another’s view, only providing a loving example others may choose to follow. Live like Christ, not like Falwell. ---
**Author:** ![ResIpsaLoquitor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b3f665/32.png) [@ResIpsaLoquitor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ResIpsaLoquitor)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2003, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuals-what-do-you-want-expect-from-me-a-christian/162953/14 "2003-03-21T03:45:48Z")
> [@](#): > > Then outlaw working on Sundays, because it is against God’s will. Actually, the U.S. Supreme Court has held that this can legitimately done…well, the first half of it, anyway. The state can exercise its police power to limit commerce and labor in order to ensure a uniform day of rest. (See McGowan v. Maryland, 366 U.S. 420 (1961).) If this were done to ensure religious worship, you’ve violated the Establishment Clause, but if it’s done for the protection of persons, it’s ok. Now, if I’m a Christian legislator, can I push for Sunday closing legislation on _this_ basis, knowing that the law would coincide with my understanding of God’s will? (And I would point out: the Sunday work prohibition is, in part, understood to be based on the fact that man needs a day off.) > [@](#): > > Then outlaw people belonging to other religions, because it is against God’s will. Nah. The Catholic Church pushes for religious liberty. I don’t have a cite handy, but I’ll be happy to track one down if someone doesn’t do it for me first. ---
**Author:** ![McDuff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f1d935/32.png) [@McDuff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/McDuff)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2003, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuals-what-do-you-want-expect-from-me-a-christian/162953/15 "2003-03-21T03:47:42Z")
Absolutely. There is a difference between what is moral and what should be legal. You can, in your own belief, believe that homosexuality is wrong. However, to say that two men cannot enter into a legally binding contract with each other, merely because you believe it is immoral, is wrong. Equal treatment under the law is all that your average queer wants. Not “special treatment”. Just stuff like being able to go and see their partner in hospital if they’ve had an accident, that kind of thing. Or to be able to get the tax breaks that married people get if they’re living with a life partner. And don’t stand outside places that support these rights and yell “God hates fags.” Believe that queers are dirty sinners if you want. Preach it from your pulpits if you feel you must. But the evil homosexual liberal conspiracy isn’t going to come and shout “Judy Garland hates Bible Bashers,” and, more to the point, wouldn’t expect this to have any effect. I’m not accusing anyone here of doing this, but I’m just saying that it’s among the things desired. ---
**Author:** ![Padeye](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@Padeye](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Padeye)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2003, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuals-what-do-you-want-expect-from-me-a-christian/162953/16 "2003-03-21T03:53:08Z")
I think homosexuals should expect from Christians to be treated like anyone else. Gay couples should have the same respect, affirmation, legitimacy and rights as any heterosexual couple. My [church](http://faithalive.com/home/index.htm) is a [Reconciling in Christ](http://lcna.org/riclist.shtm) congregation and welcomes all believers to commune with us regardless of sexual orientation. ---
**Author:** ![Priam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/77aa72/32.png) [@Priam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Priam)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2003, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuals-what-do-you-want-expect-from-me-a-christian/162953/17 "2003-03-21T03:59:19Z")
Oh, and rather OT I admit, about the word “partner” It can _burn_ as far as I’m concerned. It sounds more like we’re founding a business instead of a relationship, and drives me up a wall. Its just so… sterile. It is my personal opinion that being husband or wife to another person, regardless of gender, is about spiritual binding, not about legalities. If two people truly feel they are married to eachother, then they are in the true sense. Ceremonies and paperwork are just recognition of that one fact. If I find someone who I see for a long period of time, if we’ve moved in together and feel like every other married couple, he’s my husband and forget the technicalities of it. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2003, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuals-what-do-you-want-expect-from-me-a-christian/162953/18 "2003-03-21T04:00:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ThoughtPolice \* > \*\*I don’t have to follow all of the commandments. The Law of Moses does not apply to people today. Yahshua (Jesus) fulfilled the Law of Moses when he died on the cross. The Hebrew Bible does not apply to me. > > I live under the Law of Christ. Certainly, I sin, but I don’t pick and choose what to obey. I do the best I can, and God’s grace will cover my sins. But if I rebel against God - homosexuality is rebellion - then His grace will not cover my sins. > > I don’t care if homosexuals marry. I’ve never tried to stop it, and I never will. It is rebellion against God, but we have free-will. We can choose to rebel. Use your free-will and marry. I could care less. > > Pardon the spelling. I am too tired to check it. \*\* Well, friend, IMHO, if you’re living under the Law of Christ, as I am, then you are honorbound to obey, first and foremost, the two commandments He held up as encapsuling all the others. And I’d have to differ with you: “homosexuality” means a bunch of different things, but when someone says, “I’m gay,” he or she is not saying, “I choose to have sexual relations with people of my own sex” but rather “I’m attracted, sexually and romantically, to those people, and that’s something built into me that I have no capacity in myself to change.” That’s no more “rebelling against God” than having a quick temper is rebelling against God. It’s what you do with it – the sexuality and the temper – that is sin or not. **Mangetout** , I can give you an answer, straight from the Bible, on the part of your OP question that’s one-on-one: Micah 6:8, Matthew7:1-5, 22:34-40 and 25:31-46, and I Corinthians 13. For the other half, I’ll have to refer you to Martin Niemoeller, and I’m reasonably certain you’re familiar with what he said. Practically, don’t let the haters-in-Christ get away with anything; be quick to question why they take the stance they do. Contribute as you’re able to campaigns that seek to advance them – though I rarely have much disposable income, I try to give a little something to HRC as I can. Find out what your church’s group supporting the affirmation and welcoming of gay people is, join it, and use its resources to make a little noise. I thought of picking on **Freyr** ’s comment about silence – but he’s right – one Fred Phelps or Jerry Falwell drowns out a hundred of me and you, as far as newsworthiness goes. That’s disgusting, but it’s life. But all I can do is to try to move the lake over into the dry valley, one drop at a time. And someday, if enough of us carry enough buckets long enough, the valley will be full of water and the lakebed dry. ---
**Author:** ![kimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f0a364/32.png) [@kimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kimera)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2003, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuals-what-do-you-want-expect-from-me-a-christian/162953/19 "2003-03-21T04:01:36Z")
The Church used to allow same-sex marriages and had gay saints. If the Church allowed it in the past, it can allow it in the future. I am non-heterosexual and a Christian. ---
**Author:** ![bo989](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e9c0ed/32.png) [@bo989](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bo989)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2003, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuals-what-do-you-want-expect-from-me-a-christian/162953/20 "2003-03-21T04:05:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Priam \* > \*\*Oh, and rather OT I admit, about the word “partner” > It can _burn_ as far as I’m concerned. It sounds more like we’re founding a business instead of a relationship, and drives me up a wall. Its just so… sterile. > > It is my personal opinion that being husband or wife to another person, regardless of gender, is about spiritual binding, not about legalities. If two people truly feel they are married to eachother, then they are in the true sense. Ceremonies and paperwork are just recognition of that one fact. If I find someone who I see for a long period of time, if we’ve moved in together and feel like every other married couple, he’s my husband and forget the technicalities of it. \*\* I totally agree Priam. I have “boyfriends,” not partners. And I’m going to marry my husband, not my “life-mate.” [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuals-what-do-you-want-expect-from-me-a-christian/162953.md?page=2)