# homosexuals; what do you want/expect from me, a Christian **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 21, 2003, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuals-what-do-you-want-expect-from-me-a-christian/162953 "2003-03-21T01:17:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Rubystreak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Rubystreak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rubystreak)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2003, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuals-what-do-you-want-expect-from-me-a-christian/162953/181 "2003-03-24T16:56:06Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by UnuMondo \* > \ This gets thrown around on the Board a lot, and people who want to argue about Christianity should pay more attention to its founding. Paul did know Jesus. Acts and his own epistles explain how he had a vision of Christ which turned him from a persecuter of them to a missionary. If a poster is not Christian, he of course won’t believe that Jesus could appear to someone in such a way, Do you think Jesus told Paul his views on homosexuality in this vision? I highly doubt it. I think it’s VERY clear from reading Acts and the Epistles that Paul’s view of Jesus’ message differs greatly from Jesus’ vision. Paul is far more dogmatic and far less compassionate and forgiving. Once a persecutor, always a persecutor. I’m not a big fan of Paul. > [@](#): > > but then why is he arguing Christian doctrine? Because you don’t have to be a Christian to argue Christian doctrine. My Old Testament lit prof in college was a devout atheist, and I bet he could take the Pepsi challenge with you on Scripture any day, as unlike Dr. Chuckie, he really did read the Bible in Hebrew, Greek, and Aramaic. He thought people who took the Bible literally were doing the book a great disservice and failing to understand why it was written and by whom. A very interesting guy. My opinion of Paul’s vision is that we only have his word on it, and one gets the feeling that that he took his liberties with it. Certainly much of what he writes about comes from the mind of Paul, not the mind of God. JMO, YMMV. ---
**Author:** ![Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/df788c/32.png) [@Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ben)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2003, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuals-what-do-you-want-expect-from-me-a-christian/162953/182 "2003-03-24T17:16:39Z")
Let me point out that _as a Christian_ I found Paul’s disagreements with Jesus’ actual teachings to be so jarring and so troubling that I seriously wondered whether I could best serve Christ by ditching Paul’s heretical works. ---
**Author:** ![Dreaming\_of\_Maria\_Callas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f14d63/32.png) [@Dreaming\_of\_Maria\_Callas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dreaming_of_Maria_Callas)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2003, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuals-what-do-you-want-expect-from-me-a-christian/162953/183 "2003-03-24T17:19:03Z")
[QUOTE] \*Originally posted by Rubystreak \* \*\*Once a persecutor, always a persecutor. \*\* Funny, I thought one of the tenets of Jesus’ teaching was that people can turn over a new leaf and become new people. :rolleyes: \*\* > [@](#): > > Because you don’t have to be a Christian to argue Christian doctrine.\*\* I disagree. Though I find, for example, Buddhist thought very interesting, you won’t see me in a thread on whether something is acceptable or not in Buddhism. Religions should be defined by their adherents. UnuMondo ---
**Author:** ![Dreaming\_of\_Maria\_Callas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f14d63/32.png) [@Dreaming\_of\_Maria\_Callas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dreaming_of_Maria_Callas)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2003, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuals-what-do-you-want-expect-from-me-a-christian/162953/184 "2003-03-24T17:27:16Z")
Whoops, sorry, screwed up the formatting. But at least its clear who says what. UnuMondo ---
**Author:** ![MrVisible](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@MrVisible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrVisible)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2003, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuals-what-do-you-want-expect-from-me-a-christian/162953/185 "2003-03-24T17:47:26Z")
When a doctrine that makes so little sense affects my life in so many ways, I’ll argue it until I’m blue in the face if I like. ---
**Author:** ![Rubystreak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Rubystreak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rubystreak)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2003, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuals-what-do-you-want-expect-from-me-a-christian/162953/186 "2003-03-24T18:40:53Z")
> [@](#): > > _posted by Unu Mondo_ > Funny, I thought one of the tenets of Jesus’ teaching was that people can turn over a new leaf and become new people. It was, but I don’t think Paul turned over a new leaf, is what I’m saying. He was a rigid-minded hard case before the scales allegedly fell from his eyes, and that part of him didn’t change. He just redirected his energies, IMO. > [@](#): > > _posted by me: Because you don’t have to be a Christian to argue Christian doctrine._ > I disagree. Though I find, for example, Buddhist thought very interesting, you won’t see me in a thread on whether something is acceptable or not in Buddhism. Religions should be defined by their adherents. Oh, disagree all you want, but the fact of the matter is that RIGHT NOW you are arguing Christian doctrine with a non-Christian. I know a hell of a lot about Catholicism, having been raised as one, having gone to a Catholic high school where I took Religious Studies for 4 years, etc. I can discuss it in great detail without being an adherent. “Religions should be defined by their adherents.” Really now. I don’t think the Pope would agree with you about that. If that were the case, divorce would certainly be OK with the Catholic Church and so would birth control. No, religion is defined by the men who are in charge of it, based on their agendas (which may or may not be godly), and what the adherents think seems to matter very little. But your point, if I understand it correctly, is that those of us who aren’t Christian can’t argue with those of you who are, simply because we are not Christians. That’s absurd. We can have and are currently having a debate about Christian doctrine based on the facts as recorded in the Bible and other documents that outline the dogma of the religion in question. ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2003, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuals-what-do-you-want-expect-from-me-a-christian/162953/187 "2003-03-24T21:14:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by UnuMondo \* > **Paul did know Jesus. Acts and his own epistles explain how he had a vision of Christ which turned him from a persecuter of them to a missionary.** However, this is not the same thing as **knowing** Jesus as a real live flesh-and-blood human being, like Jesus’s disciples did before the crucifixion. Putting the one on par with the other denigrates the experience the disciples had with Jesus. And there’s another issue here. Many people since the time of Paul have had visions of Christ. Many of them were just as convinced as Paul was that what they were seeing really really was Jesus. Yet in many of these visions, Jesus told people to do things that were completely at odds with the teachings of Paul. So … why do Paul’s visions of Christ get a huge chunk of the New Testament devoted to them, while others’ visions of Christ get ignored or treated as heresy? ---
**Author:** ![kimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f0a364/32.png) [@kimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kimera)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2003, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuals-what-do-you-want-expect-from-me-a-christian/162953/188 "2003-03-24T22:17:30Z")
As for homosexuality being a choice or not and about this ex-gay nonsense, the official teaching of the Catholic Church is that homosexuality is not a choice and that ex-gay ministries do more to harm homosexuals than help them. I don’t know about any other branch of Christianity though. **UnuMondo** you say that homosexuals should consider the seminary, but the Vatican says that [homosexuals should not become priests](http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/20021008.htm). What should they do then? ---
**Author:** ![Siege](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Siege](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siege)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2003, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuals-what-do-you-want-expect-from-me-a-christian/162953/189 "2003-03-24T22:58:03Z")
**ThoughtPolice** , I have never claimed to be an expert on the Bible, so please do point out the exact chapter and verse in the Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, or John, where Christ explicitly condemns homosexuality and/or fornication. I’ve read the Gospels quite thoroughly in my time, and I don’t remember seeing that. I also have a book containing various gospels which were not included in the Bible, such as The Infancy Gospel of Thomas (don’t ask!), so if it is apocryphal, I would very much like to see it. Two statistics which get bandied about, unreliable though they may be, are that 10% of the population is homosexual, and half of all marriages end in divorce. While I may doubt those statistics, I have little doubt that there are more divorced people in America than there are homosexuals, yet I don’t hear an outcry against how we have to accept divorce. Respectfully, CJ ---
**Author:** ![ResIpsaLoquitor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b3f665/32.png) [@ResIpsaLoquitor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ResIpsaLoquitor)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2003, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuals-what-do-you-want-expect-from-me-a-christian/162953/190 "2003-03-24T23:23:13Z")
> [@](#): > > I may doubt those statistics, I have little doubt that there are more divorced people in America than there are homosexuals, yet I don’t hear an outcry against how we have to accept divorce. Two points: one, the outcry is still out there. I attend a conservative Catholic law school, and I still frequently hear complaints about the “divorce mentality.” Two, I concur with you that the outcry is _diminished_, as I know a number of Christians who conveniently work around Christ’s “let no man tear asunder” statement (and these are among some of the biggest Bible-thumpers). It drives me batty, really. Your point is correct to the extent that, from the Christian perspective, marriage would be threatened by both homosexuality and the prevalence of divorce, and it’s irresponsible and hypocritical to speak against one but not both. Having said that, I don’t like the “why aren’t you doing anything about this instead?” argument. I say that because, 1) it’s possible that some individual Christians _are_, in addition to campaigning against homosexuality, arguing against divorce as well, and 2) not everybody can do everything; you wouldn’t, for example, argue that someone crusading against child abuse shouldn’t be doing something about the environment instead. Ah, the Gospel of Thomas. We could have some _fun_ discussions about that one if I’m thinking of the story you’re thinking of… 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/df788c/32.png) [@Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ben)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2003, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuals-what-do-you-want-expect-from-me-a-christian/162953/191 "2003-03-24T23:50:17Z")
His4Ever, did you read the tract? ---
**Author:** ![Freyr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/freyr/32/5763_2.png) [@Freyr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freyr)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2003, 8:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuals-what-do-you-want-expect-from-me-a-christian/162953/192 "2003-03-25T08:03:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ResIpsaLoquitor \* > \*\*Your point is correct to the extent that, from the Christian perspective, marriage would be threatened by both homosexuality and the prevalence of divorce, and it’s irresponsible and hypocritical to speak against one but not both. \*\* I’d really like to know exactly **HOW** homosexuality threatens marriage? I’m not asking for vague generalities, I’m looking for specific, concrete examples of this. Or exactly what is this Christian perspective that allows homosexuality to be perceived as a threat to marriage? Again, what is this threat? Can you give me concrete, specific examples? ---
**Author:** ![Dreaming\_of\_Maria\_Callas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f14d63/32.png) [@Dreaming\_of\_Maria\_Callas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dreaming_of_Maria_Callas)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2003, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuals-what-do-you-want-expect-from-me-a-christian/162953/193 "2003-03-25T13:35:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ava \* > \*\ ***UnuMondo** you say that homosexuals should consider the seminary, but the Vatican says that [homosexuals should not become priests](http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/20021008.htm). What should they do then? \*\* That’s the Vatican. I’m Anglican, notice I said that in my post a page back. I just happen to agree with that particular point in the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Also, what the Vatican says doesn’t necessarily coincide with the way the Church is run in the United States, where many Catholic bishops do not mind gay priests. UnuMondo ---
**Author:** ![Dreaming\_of\_Maria\_Callas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f14d63/32.png) [@Dreaming\_of\_Maria\_Callas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dreaming_of_Maria_Callas)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2003, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuals-what-do-you-want-expect-from-me-a-christian/162953/194 "2003-03-25T13:43:59Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Rubystreak \* > **I don’t even know where to start with this. When I was a kid, I’d always hear the phrase “JESUS IS LOVE.” Didn’t stay motherly, brotherly, straight, gay, whatever love, just love. My best friend and his boyfriend really love each other. Any increase in the amount of sincere love in this world is a good thing, is it not?** If you have so much love to give, why don’t you express it towards a community instead of a single individual? Love expressed nonsexually towards a community is a lot more beneficial for the world than loving just one person. That’s why becoming a member of the clergy shouldn’t be a problem, if you are honest about having so much love to give. > [@](#): > > \*\*You are proposing to legislate against human relationships between consenting adults who hurt no one. That’s not what government is for, IMO. \*\* Government is for whatever the people decide it is for. Libertarians and Scandinavian socialists have very different ideas on what government is for, but it is decided every time election season comes around. UnuMondo ---
**Author:** ![Dunderman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecb155/32.png) [@Dunderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunderman)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2003, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuals-what-do-you-want-expect-from-me-a-christian/162953/195 "2003-03-25T13:46:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by UnuMondo \* > **If you have so much love to give, why don’t you express it towards a community instead of a single individual? Love expressed nonsexually towards a community is a lot more beneficial for the world than loving just one person. That’s why becoming a member of the clergy shouldn’t be a problem, if you are honest about having so much love to give.** If everyone followed this logic, it’d be the end of the human race. ---
**Author:** ![summerbreeze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3bc359/32.png) [@summerbreeze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/summerbreeze)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2003, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuals-what-do-you-want-expect-from-me-a-christian/162953/196 "2003-03-25T14:08:09Z")
Can we get physical for a moment? In a course I took a couple of years ago in women’s studies, we read fiction & non-fiction by & about women who are straight, lesbian, married, single. I didn’t keep all the books I read – didn’t own all of them, we swapped books, used the library, etc. – but I was struck by the article by a female OB/GYN who said that a lesbian who has never had sexual relations with a man is a virgin, regardless of her experiences with women. She went on to say that lesbians can & do have very fulfilling sex lives, but that they simply do not have sexual intercourse with one another. Those of you who insist that marriage is the union of a woman & a man must also agree that sexual intercourse can take place only between a woman & a man. Therefore, in what way can lesbians be considered “fornicators?” While you are free to believe that homosexual behavior is sinful, you really can’t use the f-word about lesbians. I’m neither a theologian nor an expert on gays & lesbians, but I do have a fondness for correct terminology. ---
**Author:** ![bo989](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e9c0ed/32.png) [@bo989](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bo989)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2003, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuals-what-do-you-want-expect-from-me-a-christian/162953/197 "2003-03-25T15:39:06Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by summerbreeze \* > \*\*Can we get physical for a moment? In a course I took a couple of years ago in women’s studies, we read fiction & non-fiction by & about women who are straight, lesbian, married, single. I didn’t keep all the books I read – didn’t own all of them, we swapped books, used the library, etc. – but I was struck by the article by a female OB/GYN who said that a lesbian who has never had sexual relations with a man is a virgin, regardless of her experiences with women. She went on to say that lesbians can & do have very fulfilling sex lives, but that they simply do not have sexual intercourse with one another. > > Those of you who insist that marriage is the union of a woman & a man must also agree that sexual intercourse can take place only between a woman & a man. > > Therefore, in what way can lesbians be considered “fornicators?” While you are free to believe that homosexual behavior is sinful, you really can’t use the f-word about lesbians. > > I’m neither a theologian nor an expert on gays & lesbians, but I do have a fondness for correct terminology. \*\* Ever heard of a “strap-on”? ---
**Author:** ![ResIpsaLoquitor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b3f665/32.png) [@ResIpsaLoquitor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ResIpsaLoquitor)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2003, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuals-what-do-you-want-expect-from-me-a-christian/162953/198 "2003-03-25T15:53:19Z")
> [@](#): > > I’d really like to know exactly HOW homosexuality threatens marriage? I’m not asking for vague generalities, I’m looking for specific, concrete examples of this. This I’m still trying to figure out. I’m at work right now; perhaps when I get back to class tonight I’ll look for more specifics. ---
**Author:** ![summerbreeze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3bc359/32.png) [@summerbreeze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/summerbreeze)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2003, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuals-what-do-you-want-expect-from-me-a-christian/162953/199 "2003-03-25T16:23:55Z")
**bo989** Unless we’re talking amputation here, a strap-on doesn’t qualify ---
**Author:** ![Dunderman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecb155/32.png) [@Dunderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunderman)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2003, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuals-what-do-you-want-expect-from-me-a-christian/162953/200 "2003-03-25T16:57:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by summerbreeze \* > \*\*Unless we’re talking amputation here, a strap-on doesn’t qualify \*\* This is getting ridiculous. Who says what “virgin” means anyway? Who says what “fornication” means? Surely the sin is the same no matter what word is used? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuals-what-do-you-want-expect-from-me-a-christian/162953.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuals-what-do-you-want-expect-from-me-a-christian/162953.md?page=11)