# Honduras elects a new president. What now? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 30, 2009, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honduras-elects-a-new-president-what-now/519488 "2009-11-30T17:04:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2009, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honduras-elects-a-new-president-what-now/519488/41 "2009-12-08T23:08:08Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > The new Honduran government is far more friendlier to us rather than Venezuela and Bolivia. > > Hurt trade and American economy and also a limited domino effect in Latin America of more Chavezists gaining power we already have two (Chavez and Evo Moreles of Bolivia). So what? Chavez might not like the U.S. – which I think is something that can always be changed – but he’s no threat to us. Heck, it’s no skin off America’s nose – and none of America’s business, either – if every country south of the Rio Grande joins the Bolivarian Alliance. > [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Your claim is far more absurd than me saying that Zelaya would be another Chavez. Micheletti would not have been another Pinochet. Oh, Micheletti is no Pinochet, merely a placeholder. Same with Lobo, in all likelihood. But I am thinking of the band of Pinochets standing behind them. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2009, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honduras-elects-a-new-president-what-now/519488/42 "2009-12-09T00:37:43Z")
QUOTE=BrainGlutton;11865686]So what? Chavez might not like the U.S. – which I think is something that can always be changed – but he’s no threat to us. Heck, it’s no skin off America’s nose – and none of America’s business, either – if every country south of the Rio Grande joins the Bolivarian Alliance. [/QUOTE] Castro-Chavez-Moreles Axis has already been taking friendly steps with Russia, Iran, and China. The Russian navy not too long ago held exercises in Venezuela. That is basically placing America’s three greatest strategic threats right on our backdoor in the event of a war and unacceptable. > [@](#): > > Oh, Micheletti is no Pinochet, merely a placeholder. Same with Lobo, in all likelihood. But I am thinking of the band of Pinochets standing behind them. International opinion will not allow it. You know how b\*\*\*\*\* our President was when this coup happened, he ain’t gonna accept a Pinochet at all. ---
**Author:** ![wmfellows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c2a13f/32.png) [@wmfellows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wmfellows)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2009, 11:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honduras-elects-a-new-president-what-now/519488/43 "2009-12-09T11:28:48Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > So what? Chavez might not like the U.S. – which I think is something that can always be changed – but he’s no threat to us. Barring the US becoming a basket-case Leftist populist dictatorship, I rather seriously doubt that. Chavez feeds off of having a big “bully” to oppose. Rather like his hero, Castro. > [@](#): > > Heck, it’s no skin off America’s nose – and none of America’s business, either – if every country south of the Rio Grande joins the Bolivarian Alliance. I would rather think that the US would have no small direct interest in opposing the Chavez inspired idiocy that is the Bolivarian Alliance, especially as it would doubtlessly drive more emigration to the US from the Latin American countries. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2009, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honduras-elects-a-new-president-what-now/519488/44 "2009-12-15T14:13:14Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Castro-Chavez-Moreles Axis has already been taking friendly steps with Russia, Iran, and China. The Russian navy not too long ago held exercises in Venezuela. That is basically placing America’s three greatest strategic threats right on our backdoor in the event of a war and unacceptable. Waitaminnit, now. What “strategic threats”? China is America’s biggest creditor. You know how that works: If I owe you a thousand dollars, I have a problem; if I owe you a million dollars, **you** have a problem. Russia does not appear to have any territorial ambitions of any kind any more. They just want to swing their weight in what they consider their proper sphere of influence, the former USSR; which the U.S. and the world can well afford to tolerate. Iran? (1) A strategic threat to Israel is **not** a strategic threat to the U.S. (2) Iran is not really a strategic threat to Israel, Ahmadinejad’s saber-rattling notwithstanding; that rhetoric is for domestic consumption. Iran, like Russia, simply wants a sphere of influence in its own neighborhood – something the U.S. has always insisted on having since the Monroe Doctrine, so we can hardly deny it is a legitimate ambition for other powers. > [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > International opinion will not allow it. You know how b\*\*\*\*\* our President was when this coup happened, he ain’t gonna accept a Pinochet at all. You misunderstand. It has **already** happened. The “band of Pinochets” are the military and social elite of Honduras who engineered the coup. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2009, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honduras-elects-a-new-president-what-now/519488/45 "2009-12-15T14:15:38Z")
> [@wmfellows](#): > > I would rather think that the US would have no small direct interest in opposing the Chavez inspired idiocy that is the Bolivarian Alliance, especially as it would doubtlessly drive more emigration to the US from the Latin American countries. You really think that would make any difference? In 2000, in Mexico, the socialist (at least, it is officially a member of the Socialist International) PRI, which had controlled the presidency for decades, was supplanted by the right-wing PAN. That has done nothing at all to relieve immigration pressure on the U.S. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2009, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honduras-elects-a-new-president-what-now/519488/46 "2009-12-17T01:22:54Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Waitaminnit, now. What “strategic threats”? China is America’s biggest creditor. You know how that works: If I owe you a thousand dollars, I have a problem; if I owe you a million dollars, **you** have a problem. Russia does not appear to have any territorial ambitions of any kind any more. They just want to swing their weight in what they consider their proper sphere of influence, the former USSR; which the U.S. and the world can well afford to tolerate. Iran? (1) A strategic threat to Israel is **not** a strategic threat to the U.S. (2) Iran is not really a strategic threat to Israel, Ahmadinejad’s saber-rattling notwithstanding; that rhetoric is for domestic consumption. Iran, like Russia, simply wants a sphere of influence in its own neighborhood – something the U.S. has always insisted on having since the Monroe Doctrine, so we can hardly deny it is a legitimate ambition for other powers. China is supporting North Korea which is a rival to South Korea (our ally) and will certainly oppose Korean reunification. As for Russia what of it’s aggressive actions against Georgia and meddling in Ukraine? > [@](#): > > You misunderstand. It has **already** happened. The “band of Pinochets” are the military and social elite of Honduras who engineered the coup. Well they haven’t been imprisoning and murdering thousands so they aren’t likely to be new Pinochets. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2009, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honduras-elects-a-new-president-what-now/519488/47 "2009-12-17T04:42:15Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Well they haven’t been imprisoning and murdering thousands so they aren’t likely to be new Pinochets. It all has to do with the scale, Honduras is still smaller than Chile, less effort is needed to become a Pinochet. [http://ellibertador.hn/vivvo\_general/Noticias/3591.html](http://ellibertador.hn/vivvo_general/Noticias/3591.html) > [@](#): > > Con la muerte de Tróchez, según indicó, ascienden a 14 las personas que han sido asesinadas en condiciones sospechosas y presuntamente vinculadas al actual contexto político. “With the death of Trochez [who was a member of a human rights group in Honduras], as mentioned, there are now 14 people that have been murdered in suspicious actions and likely related to the current political context.” > **[Honduras: Reject Amnesty for Abuses During Coup](https://www.hrw.org/news/2009/12/11/honduras-reject-amnesty-abuses-during-coup)** > [@](#): > > “A blanket amnesty would flout Honduras’ obligation to ensure that all victims of rights violations can obtain a remedy, and set a precedent for granting impunity to abusers,” said José Miguel Vivanco, Americas Director at Human Rights Watch. > > Honduras is party to several international legal treaties that impose an obligation to protect fundamental rights and to remedy their abuses, including by investigating and prosecuting the violators as appropriate. These treaties also guarantee victims an effective legal remedy, including justice, truth, and adequate reparations. > > Human Rights Watch has repeatedly called on the de facto government to repeal repressive decrees, stop blocking human rights inquiries, and investigate abuses - including allegations of killings, excessive use of force, and illegal and arbitrary detentions. > > “The abuses committed during the coup and its aftermath need to be investigated, not swept under the carpet,” Vivanco said. “Without a full and impartial inquiry, the legitimacy of any government will be called into question.” ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2009, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honduras-elects-a-new-president-what-now/519488/48 "2009-12-17T05:21:46Z")
The opposition Radio and TV stations that were closed by the [del]goriletti[/del] Micheletti government still have their reporters threatened or their work and signals interrupted in many ways. [http://thetyee.ca/Mediacheck/2009/12/13/HondurasRadioGlobo/](http://thetyee.ca/Mediacheck/2009/12/13/HondurasRadioGlobo/) > [@](#): > > The attacks against Radio Globo haven’t stopped. In August, their transmitters were sabotaged, and in September, the military raided the station in conjunction with a suspension of constitutional rights and the imposition of a decree allowing the government to shut the station down. > > “Decree 124-2009, a measure published in the official gazette on Oct. 7th, allows the authorities to suspend any programme or media ‘fomenting social anarchy’ – and, without saying so openly, is targeted at those that oppose the coup,” said Reporters without Borders in an Oct. 21 press release. > > Radio Globo’s journalists turned towards the web after their equipment was seized, launching a clandestine version of the station online which has seen more than one million listeners, including more than half a million people from outside Honduras. Radio Globo journalists were back on the air as soon as the decree was lifted. Reflecting on the period since the coup, Romero says it’s been a struggle, but worth it. > > Good for ratings > > “If we hadn’t reported on the coup right away, we’d be like the rest of the media here – tranquil and trying to compete for second or third place,” he said. Since June, the station has seen their market share rise from seven to 28 per cent. They’ve gone from relative obscurity to international acclaim for their work, winning a prestigious Spanish award for best radio station. > > Most of all, says Romero, they’ve served the people of Honduras. > > “We’ve always believed that Honduras needs profound changes, and that the oligarchy which has caused this country to be in a state of poverty that compares to that of Haiti can’t keep running the country,” he said. “And the radio took on that commitment.” [http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSN2022560220091120](http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSN2022560220091120) > [@](#): > > Last week, U.S. Democratic Representative Jan Schakowsky accused the Micheletti government of disrupting Canal 36’s news shows since the coup in a visit to the TV station. > > “There has been a complete violation of freedom of the press,” she told reporters. > > Micheletti imposed restrictions on opposition media after Zelaya sneaked back into the country in September and sought refuge in the Brazilian Embassy. The curbs were lifted last month following strong international criticism. > > Tensions are simmering in the country in the run-up to a Nov. 29 presidential election, which Latin American governments say they will only recognize if Zelaya is reinstated until the formal end of his term in January. > > In recent days, opposition media have dedicated more and more airtime to Zelaya’s criticism of the election, which the de facto government says is vital to resolve the five-month-old political crisis. So, whats next? Clearly to me Honduras is the odd Central American nation that has reactionaries still controlling all branches of government thanks to very unfair methods, unfortunately for the oligarchs international pressure has forced them already to realize that it is not like in the good old days. I expect that the new president Lobo, with an already tainted administration, will have a very hard time making everything safe for the Honduran oligarchies as it was before. International and internal pressures will grow if he decides to whitewash all the actions of the coup supporters. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2009, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honduras-elects-a-new-president-what-now/519488/49 "2009-12-17T20:26:54Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > China is supporting North Korea which is a rival to South Korea (our ally) and will certainly oppose Korean reunification. That is no strategic threat to the U.S. Furthermore, SK itself is ambivalent about reunification. See [this](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=542773) thread. > [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > As for Russia what of it’s aggressive actions against Georgia and meddling in Ukraine? That is no strategic threat to the U.S. Nor to the NATO countries. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2009, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honduras-elects-a-new-president-what-now/519488/50 "2009-12-18T02:15:58Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > It all has to do with the scale, Honduras is still smaller than Chile, less effort is needed to become a Pinochet. > > [http://ellibertador.hn/vivvo\_general/Noticias/3591.html](http://ellibertador.hn/vivvo_general/Noticias/3591.html) > > “With the death of Trochez [who was a member of a human rights group in Honduras], as mentioned, there are now 14 people that have been murdered in suspicious actions and likely related to the current political context.” > > [Honduras: Reject Amnesty for Abuses During Coup | Human Rights Watch](http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2009/12/11/honduras-reject-amnesty-abuses-during-coup) > [@GIGObuster](#): > > The opposition Radio and TV stations that were closed by the [del]goriletti[/del] Micheletti government still have their reporters threatened or their work and signals interrupted in many ways. > > [http://thetyee.ca/Mediacheck/2009/12/13/HondurasRadioGlobo/](http://thetyee.ca/Mediacheck/2009/12/13/HondurasRadioGlobo/) > [http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSN2022560220091120](http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSN2022560220091120) > So, whats next? Clearly to me Honduras is the odd Central American nation that has reactionaries still controlling all branches of government thanks to very unfair methods, unfortunately for the oligarchs international pressure has forced them already to realize that it is not like in the good old days. > > I expect that the new president Lobo, with an already tainted administration, will have a very hard time making everything safe for the Honduran oligarchies as it was before. International and internal pressures will grow if he decides to whitewash all the actions of the coup supporters. 14 people dead? Just as likely they were commited by overzealous paramilitary troops or even gang members rather than the government. As for blocking opposition media-hasn’t Chavez done that also yet you are silent about it. > [@BrainGlutton](#): > > That is no strategic threat to the U.S. Furthermore, SK itself is ambivalent about reunification. See [this](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=542773) thread. I am (second generation) Korean-American and I am willing to do anything and everything in my power to secure Korean reunification. Besides our foreign policy should not be neo-isolationism but a programme to encourage democracies and to eventually form a world government in the case of an extraterrestrial invasion. Yes I do believe in extraterrestrial civilizations and human unity is the only way we have any way of surviving an extraterrestrial invasion. > [@](#): > > That is no strategic threat to the U.S. Nor to the NATO countries. **BrainGlutton in 1938:** Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan are not strategic threat to the United States. Let them do whatever they want in Europe and China. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2009, 9:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honduras-elects-a-new-president-what-now/519488/51 "2009-12-18T09:27:23Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > 14 people dead? Just as likely they were commited by overzealous paramilitary troops or even gang members rather than the government. Please, I was not born yesterday and I was born and lived in Central America. When the authorities do not investigate or allow others to investigate the abuses it is silly to continue to always assume the innocence of the rulers. > [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > As for blocking opposition media-hasn’t Chavez done that also yet you are silent about it. This is not about Chavez, and I was not quiet about it before. The fact is that outfits that supported the coup against Chavez still continue broadcasting on cable in Venezuela, with a big audience (a court decision came hard on the coup supporting TV network for doing more than just supporting the coup, they only lost the right to using the public airwaves, but not the still lucrative cable market) In Honduras the army and the police invaded the radio and tv station to prevent them from even using cable or any other ways to continue telling the truth (the writers and editors of El Libertador had to go into hiding as they are under death threats). It was thanks to international pressure that many more lives and freedoms are allowed to continue, but just barely. More pressure is needed to make the still de facto rulers to bug off. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2009, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honduras-elects-a-new-president-what-now/519488/52 "2009-12-18T17:08:14Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > I am (second generation) Korean-American and I am willing to do anything and everything in my power to secure Korean reunification. Besides our foreign policy should not be neo-isolationism but a programme to encourage democracies and to eventually form a world government in the case of an extraterrestrial invasion. Yes I do believe in extraterrestrial civilizations and human unity is the only way we have any way of surviving an extraterrestrial invasion. Well, we agree on something. Physics being what it is, I’m not too concerned about extraterrestrial invasion (an extinction-level-event asteroid strike is a more realistic concern), but, otherwise, the world needs a government for the same reasons a country needs a government. [I think this would be the best (slow and steady) approach for getting from here to there.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=339251) ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2009, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honduras-elects-a-new-president-what-now/519488/53 "2009-12-19T03:19:23Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Please, I was not born yesterday and I was born and lived in Central America. When the authorities do not investigate or allow others to investigate the abuses it is silly to continue to always assume the innocence of the rulers. Am I saying the rulers are completely innocent? No I’m saying what the likely murderers are. > [@](#): > > This is not about Chavez, and I was not quiet about it before. The fact is that outfits that supported the coup against Chavez still continue broadcasting on cable in Venezuela, with a big audience (a court decision came hard on the coup supporting TV network for doing more than just supporting the coup, they only lost the right to using the public airwaves, but not the still lucrative cable market) > > In Honduras the army and the police invaded the radio and tv station to prevent them from even using cable or any other ways to continue telling the truth (the writers and editors of El Libertador had to go into hiding as they are under death threats). It was thanks to international pressure that many more lives and freedoms are allowed to continue, but just barely. More pressure is needed to make the still de facto rulers to bug off. Venezuela is a fairly poor nation thus banning the TV station from public airwaves is a pretty devestating blow. > [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Well, we agree on something. Physics being what it is, I’m not too concerned about extraterrestrial invasion (an extinction-level-event asteroid strike is a more realistic concern), but, otherwise, the world needs a government for the same reasons a country needs a government. [I think this would be the best (slow and steady) approach for getting from here to there.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=339251) The EU is too liberal to form a world government organized under it’s current regulations and systems. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2009, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honduras-elects-a-new-president-what-now/519488/54 "2009-12-19T04:01:42Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Am I saying the rulers are completely innocent? No I’m saying what the likely murderers are. Again, not allowing independent investigations to go forward speaks volumes about who the current rulers are protecting. > [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Venezuela is a fairly poor nation thus banning the TV station from public airwaves is a pretty devestating blow. That is not what I heard: > **[laverdad.com](http://web.archive.org/web/20071205164431/http://www.laverdad.com/detallenew.asp?idcat=1&idnot=58914)** > [@](#): > > RCTV es nuevamente el canal más visto en Venezuela, según la encuestadora AGB, que da cuenta del nivel de sintonía que el pasado lunes superó al resto de los canales en televisión por suscripción, los cuales estuvieron incluso 14 puntos por encima de la señal abierta. “RCTV again was the most watched channel in Venezuela according to AGB polling.” I forgot to say it is not just thanks to cable but thanks also to DirecTV that RCTV still continues to oppose Chavez. Now, back to Honduras, the Michelletti coup government never consulted the courts when the police and military invaded and closed down Channel 36. They did not even had the chance to continue on cable. Once again outside and internal pressure (that was not coming from the right in the USA) caused Micheletti to pull out. But it is clear that the death squads are active once again to harass the opposition. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2009, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honduras-elects-a-new-president-what-now/519488/55 "2009-12-19T04:40:05Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Again, not allowing independent investigations to go forward speaks volumes about who the current rulers are protecting. Still is this anywhere near the scale of tyranny in Chile under Pinochet? Simple yes or no question. > [@](#): > > That is not what I heard: > > [laverdad.com](http://web.archive.org/web/20071205164431/http://www.laverdad.com/detallenew.asp?idcat=1&idnot=58914) > > “RCTV again was the most watched channel in Venezuela according to AGB polling.” > > I forgot to say it is not just thanks to cable but thanks also to DirecTV that RCTV still continues to oppose Chavez. > > Now, back to Honduras, the Michelletti coup government never consulted the courts when the police and military invaded and closed down Channel 36. They did not even had the chance to continue on cable. Once again outside and internal pressure (that was not coming from the right in the USA) caused Micheletti to pull out. But it is clear that the death squads are active once again to harass the opposition. Cite the death squads. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2009, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honduras-elects-a-new-president-what-now/519488/56 "2009-12-19T05:06:07Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Still is this anywhere near the scale of tyranny in Chile under Pinochet? Simple yes or no question. :rolleyes: I already said that a Pinochet was avoided thanks to internal and outside pressures, Micheletti is however such an idiot that he should not be trusted even after he was forced into pull back, IMHO more lives are at stake if pressure is removed. > [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Cite the death squads. [http://inthesetimes.com/article/5334/honduras\_human\_rights\_crisis](http://inthesetimes.com/article/5334/honduras_human_rights_crisis) > [@](#): > > But the circumstances surrounding the violent assassination of two anti-coup resistance members in recent days has sent out fresh shockwaves, calling up grim memories of the death squads that roamed Honduras a generation ago. > Two activists murdered, as violence rises in capital > > On December 11, the decapitated body of Corrales Garcia was found about 50 kilometers east of the capital of Tegucigalpa, according to a report by the Committee for the Defense of Human Rights in Honduras. Garcia was last seen in police custody, after being picked up December 5 in a mass raid against nonviolent resistance members near the capital. “What’s going on in the country is a low-density attack strategy,” said Andres Pavon, president of CODEH. “The authorities aren’t assassinating the masses, they’re killing selected individuals, or small groups of people. In that way it’s very much like the [nineteen] eighties,” Pavon said. > > The other case involved the death of Walter Trochez, 27, a well-known resistance member and gay activist, who was shot twice in the chest on Sunday evening in downtown Tegucigalpa. Trochez, who was HIV-positive, was gunned down in a drive-by shooting while on his way home from distributing AIDS awareness literature. Witnesses reported the motorcycle involved was a police model, and that the men wore police uniforms. > > “Amnesty International fears that Walter’s killing may be a sign of worse abuses to come in the atmosphere of political instability and fear that has prevailed since the coup d’état in June,” stated the world’s foremost human rights organization, in a press release this week that confirmed Trochez had been previously targeted for his human rights work. > > Gilda Velazquez, director of Refuge without Limits, another human rights group in the capital investigating the recent executions, said that Trochez had survived a kidnapping attempt by masked gunmen on December 4, who had interrogated him as to the whereabouts of other resistance leaders. > > According to those who were kidnapped with the beheaded Garcia, they too were abused and interrogated while imprisoned. Criminal Investigation Division (DIC) uniforms and vehicles were also reported in each case. > > “The police want to break up the neighborhood resistance cells,” Velazquez said, “because the resistance is building political citizenship in these poor neighborhoods. And that scares the authorities. They’re terrified of the people experiencing that kind of empowerment.” > > The Criminal Investigation Division (DIC) declined to comment on either case for In These Times, but Adolfo Reyes, 42, an intelligence officer with the National Police, agreed to discuss the rise in violence in general. > > “The crime wave is the work of common criminals, nothing more,” said Reyes, speaking via cell phone from San Pedro Sulu, Honduras’ largest city. Reyes maintained that whoever was killing resistance members was doing so for private, not political reasons. “There are many gangs. There are many drug traffickers. Who knows what kinds of things these dead people were involved in?” > > According to CODEH, more than 40 people have been murdered in the capital of Tegucigalpa in the last two weeks—with 15 deaths coming just over the weekend. Pavon isn’t ready to dismiss police involvement. > > “There is no doubt in our minds the deaths of Garcia and Trochez were political assassinations,” said Pavon. “It is also instructive to note that in the police report Garcia was shot in the head, but his head has not yet been found.” [http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/08/world/americas/08joya.html](http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/08/world/americas/08joya.html) > [@](#): > > THE coup here has brought back a lot of Central America’s cold war ghosts, but few as polarizing as Billy Joya, a former police captain accused of being the former leader of a death squad. > > He didn’t sneak quietly back into national politics. He made his reappearance on a popular evening talk show just hours after troops had rousted President Manuel Zelaya out of bed and loaded him onto a plane leaving the country. > > Mr. Joya’s purpose, he said, was to defend the ouster and help calm a public that freed itself from military rule less than three decades ago. Instead, he set off alarms among human rights activists around the world who worried that the worst elements of the Honduran military were taking control. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2009, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honduras-elects-a-new-president-what-now/519488/57 "2009-12-19T16:41:32Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > :rolleyes: > > I already said that a Pinochet was avoided thanks to internal and outside pressures, Micheletti is however such an idiot that he should not be trusted even after he was forced into pull back, IMHO more lives are at stake if pressure is removed. You constantly reiterated that Honduras would have an another Pinochet. Beside will be apply pressure for the death squads but not for the coup. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2009, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honduras-elects-a-new-president-what-now/519488/58 "2009-12-19T22:22:47Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > You constantly reiterated that Honduras would have an another Pinochet. Beside will be apply pressure for the death squads but not for the coup. It will have it if pressure is removed, it is clear that right now the right wing media is telling all in the US something like “nothing to see here, keep moving”. It is important that the coup plotters and supporters do not get any profit or recognition for what they did, but it is clear that the new president Lobo will attempt to whitewash everything as any good right winger from Central America does. But international and internal pressure will IMHO make those whitewash plans hard to apply. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2009, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honduras-elects-a-new-president-what-now/519488/59 "2009-12-20T15:38:48Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > It will have it if pressure is removed, it is clear that right now the right wing media is telling all in the US something like “nothing to see here, keep moving”. > > It is important that the coup plotters and supporters do not get any profit or recognition for what they did, but it is clear that the new president Lobo will attempt to whitewash everything as any good right winger from Central America does. But international and internal pressure will IMHO make those whitewash plans hard to apply. Which is what I advocate. Pressure the Honduran government if they commit human rights violation but don’t advocate the resignation of the new government. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2009, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honduras-elects-a-new-president-what-now/519488/60 "2009-12-20T18:30:11Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Am I saying the rulers are completely innocent? No I’m saying what the likely murderers are. In Honduras? Not Zelaya’s supporters, at any rate. > [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Venezuela is a fairly poor nation thus banning the TV station from public airwaves is a pretty devestating blow. The station in question supported an attempted coup d’etat. If that happened in the U.S., not only would the station lose its license, but all its execs would be in prison for treason. > [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > The EU is too liberal to form a world government organized under it’s current regulations and systems. Read the thread more carefully: It wouldn’t necessarily be under its **current** systems; every major expansion would require a renegotiation of the terms, a new constitutional convention, as it were, with the applicant countries represented. I think world government is more plausibly achieved by such a piecemeal, evolutionary political process than by all the world’s countries simultaneously agreeing to form one. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honduras-elects-a-new-president-what-now/519488.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honduras-elects-a-new-president-what-now/519488.md?page=4)