# Honduras: Who's correct? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 29, 2009, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honduras-whos-correct/501305 "2009-06-29T02:13:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![Frodo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/frodo/32/302_2.png) [@Frodo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frodo)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2009, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honduras-whos-correct/501305/221 "2009-07-03T22:40:25Z")
Lets make it clear, you think that Zelaya actions justified a coup or not? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2009, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honduras-whos-correct/501305/222 "2009-07-03T22:48:56Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > It’s entirely possible Zelaya actually was looking forward to his term ending so he could devote himself to further demagoguery and played a more hands on role in crafting the new constitution. From there it’s just a short step back into a perpetual role of leadership which would have had all the legal backing required to keep him in the good graces of the international community. I will have to say that is going into fantasy land. The reality is that with the army, congress and courts against him, Don Quixote would have an easier time of pulling that off. Honduras just showed that international community status is meaningless for them. And it is clear that once this crisis is over, Zelaya will be ignored when a newly elected leader decides to keep the former president under his watchful eye. Very few in the world would oppose that if the new president gets elected on an anti Zelaya platform. Something that I do think it is very likely in the future. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2009, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honduras-whos-correct/501305/223 "2009-07-04T00:27:03Z")
BTW the news \*\*Jophiel \*\*linked regarding the candid confession that the army broke the law is coming from the Miami Herald. [http://www.miamiherald.com/news/americas/story/1125872.html](http://www.miamiherald.com/news/americas/story/1125872.html) > [@](#): > > Top Honduran military lawyer: We broke the law … > [@](#): > > Inestroza acknowledged that after 34 years in the military, he and many other longtime soldiers found Zelaya’s allegiance to Chávez difficult to stomach. Although he calls Zelaya a ‘‘leftist of lies’’ for his bourgeoisie upbringing, he admits he’d have a hard time taking orders from a leftist. > > Memories of the 1980s fight against guerrilla insurgents are still fresh in Honduras. > > ‘‘We fought the subversive movements here and we were the only country that did not have a fratricidal war like the others,’’ he said. ``It would be difficult for us, with our training, to have a relationship with a leftist government. That’s impossible. I personally would have retired, because my thinking, my principles, would not have allowed me to participate in that.‘’ > > And if Zelaya comes back, he’ll have to retire anyway. Inestroza is being forgetful of many things. I guess one can be forgetful as Negroponte (the US ambassador in Honduras during the 80s) when looking the other way when on the 80s many people were dumped from helicopters to the sea by the Honduran military. However, this shows how it was only in fantasy land where Zelaya would succeed. Because, what army was there to support him? All the yelling that Venezuelan troops where in Honduras sounds to me like the dictator that said that Poland was attacking Germany so they were justified into invading Poland. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2009, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honduras-whos-correct/501305/224 "2009-07-05T19:05:10Z")
The latest news is that Zelaya, other Latin American presidents and members of the UN are headed to Honduras. As I know how the toncontin airport is, the Honduran army just has to land a Helicopter in the landing strip to prevent anyone from landing. Does anyone know what is the status of the Soto Cano US airbase in Honduras? Does the USA “handshake” agreement that allowed the US army to control the base was voided by the current coup leaders? The plan is that if landing in Honduras is not possible the group will head to El Salvador. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2009, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honduras-whos-correct/501305/225 "2009-07-05T19:25:28Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > The latest news is that Zelaya, other Latin American presidents and members of the UN are headed to Honduras. No. His plane just took off from Dulles with some of his (ousted) cabinet member and is joined by Father Miguel d’Escoto, UN GA President and a number of aids, there are also some OAS members on the plane. There’s a _second_ flight is on the way to _El Salvador_ and that’s where the Presidents of Argentina, Ecuador and Paraguay (?) are headed along with the OAS Secretary General, Doctor Jose Manuel Insulza. > [@](#): > > _As I know how the toncontin airport is, the Honduran army just has to land a Helicopter in the landing strip to prevent anyone from landing._ The current Honduran dictator, backed by the army, has indeed proclaimed that the flight won’t be allowed to land. Funny that, seeing as they put out an international warrant for his arrest – and yet as he is on his way to “surrender” they won’t allow him in the country. :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > \*Does anyone know what is the status of the Soto Cano US airbase in Honduras? > > Does the USA “handshake” agreement that allowed the US army to control the base was voided by the current coup leaders? The plan is that if landing in Honduras is not possible the group will head to El Salvador.\* Can’t give you a definitive answer on this one, but since the base was never “official” and the US has suspended all joint military maneuvers, STM it is in the hands of the de facto Goverment. * * * Again, although it is hard to log in due to excess traffic (you have to keep trying), I’d urge anyone wanting to see the situation live to tune into [**TeleSur’s live feed**](http://www.telesurtv.net/noticias/canal/senalenvivo.php). There are literally tens of thousands of Hondurans defying the de facto authorities and marching as one towards the airport – but there are a number of army/police blockades in their way as well as a number of snipers in the area. Tense doesn’t even begin to describe the situation; can’t imagine what will happen in about four hours. Hoping for the best. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2009, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honduras-whos-correct/501305/226 "2009-07-05T20:13:24Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > …Hoping for the best. From your lips to the Ears. Trouble is, even though this has all the trappings of a comic-opera coup, people in the midst of such seldom see the absurdity of the comedy, they take themselves with deadly seriousness. I know little enough about Honduras, but they are human, and I am somewhat knowledgeable on that subject. I would be willing to bet that rumors are circulating that the returning Presidente has plans to round up his enemies and try them for treason. It doesn’t even have to be a plot by his opponents to spread disinformation, it is simply the human tendency to speculate into a vacuum. And it will be believed. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2009, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honduras-whos-correct/501305/227 "2009-07-05T20:35:29Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > I know little enough about Honduras, but they are human, and I am somewhat knowledgeable on that subject. I would be willing to bet that rumors are circulating that the returning Presidente has plans to round up his enemies and try them for treason. It doesn’t even have to be a plot by his opponents to spread disinformation, it is simply the human tendency to speculate into a vacuum. > > And it will be believed. Zelaya has made a very (globally) public commitment to pardon his enemies if he returns to power – but the coup leaders might or might not believe that, and, with the media controlled, the common people of Honduras might or might not even have heard of it. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2009, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honduras-whos-correct/501305/228 "2009-07-05T22:02:13Z")
Shit shit shit…two dead and a number wounded as the army charges the crowd that had managed to make it to the airport’s perimeter. Looks like they were set up…shots and bombs flying. Zelaya 30 minutes away. Fuckerrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrs! ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2009, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honduras-whos-correct/501305/229 "2009-07-05T23:27:06Z")
Zelaya’s plane trying to land…tarmac swamped by military…placing obstacles (jeeps & other military vehicles) to prevent landing. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2009, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honduras-whos-correct/501305/230 "2009-07-05T23:40:12Z")
Plane captain on the phone…denied landing, threatened to “neutralize” if he attempted to land…flying to undisclosed location. Zelaya speaking…told by operator that they were going to send Air Force after them…going to plan B. Calls what has happened on the ground “barbaric.” Will try to get in country from elsewhere likely tomorrow. Asking “major powers” to take an active role against the usurpers…says those trying to govern the people through boots, guns and repression will not get away with it. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2009, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honduras-whos-correct/501305/231 "2009-07-06T01:01:41Z")
Heard on the radio Zelaya landed in El Salvador instead – but tonight he’s flying to Washington to, I guess, review plans. Wonder if, at this point, Obama will consider suspending all aid to Honduras, or freezing the coup leaders’ assets in the U.S., or at least recalling our ambassador? ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2009, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honduras-whos-correct/501305/232 "2009-07-06T01:10:46Z")
It was my understanding he diverted to Nicaragua, not El Salvador. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2009, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honduras-whos-correct/501305/233 "2009-07-06T01:16:16Z")
[Latest Wikipedia entry,](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_Honduran_coup_d%27%C3%A9tat#July_5) FWIW: > [@](#): > > **July 5** > > The Chancellor of the de facto government of Honduras, Enrique Ortez Colindres, announced on local radio that he had given orders that Zelaya’s plane not be allowed to enter Honduran airspace.[122] TACA and American airlines suspended flights in and out of Toncontin airport on Sunday, stranding hundreds of passengers.[123] An estimated 20,000 soldiers are guarding the airport. > > Radio Globo is quoted as reporting that entities from the highest levels of business, including ex-presidents Carlos Flores Facusee (PLH) and Ricardo Maduro (PNH) have withdrawn their support from Micheletti.[124][125] > > According to the Associated Press, Zelaya, accompanied by several ambassadors and the United Nations General Assembly president, departed Washington’s Dulles Airport on a small Venezuelan jet, hoping to land in the Honduran capital.[126] Further Associated Press have quoted Zelaya as saying “No one can obligate me to turn around. The constitution prohibits expelling Hondurans from the country. I am returning with all of my constitutional guarantees.” But with their safety in the air not guaranteed, Ecuadorean President Rafael Correa pleaded with the Honduran military forces to avoid bloodshed. “If there is violence the whole world must clearly know who is responsible,” he said.[127] > > After attempting to land without a flight plan filed, Zelaya’s plane was turned back by Honduras’ air force.[128] According to Zelaya in an interview with teleSur, the Honduran military blocked his entry by placing obstacles over the airstrip. This was confirmed by television images from CNN, showing military vehicles in the middle of the airstrip. According CNN, Zelaya will land in El Salvador. A pro-Zelaya protest, including some people throwing stones, was able to break through various security cordons to an area near the airport. Stephen Ferry, an international press photographer at the scene, reported seeing government forces attack the protest. “I saw a kid being shot in the head, I think he is dead… There are lots of injured — I don’t know how many. They just opened fire — it was completely unprovoked.” [129][130] ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2009, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honduras-whos-correct/501305/234 "2009-07-06T01:25:11Z")
**DS** is correct. He is currently in Managua, meeting with Ortega. The delegation from the second plane (including the three Presidents) await his arrival in El Salvador shortly with/out Ortega, where they’ll hold a joint presser. And no, no plans of returning to Washington. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2009, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honduras-whos-correct/501305/235 "2009-07-06T01:31:46Z")
> [@](#): > > Stephen Ferry, an international press photographer at the scene, reported seeing government forces attack the protest. “I saw a kid being shot in the head, I think he is dead… There are lots of injured — I don’t know how many. They just opened fire — it was completely unprovoked.” Certainly was, I was watching the live feed and I was totally shocked with the brutal suddenness of the attack thus the revulsion that shows through in my immediate [post](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=11309354&postcount=228). Can’t imagine what it must have been on the ground – BTW the sixteen year old shot in the back of the head was about three meters away from a platform that was set-up for the press. Message sent. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2009, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honduras-whos-correct/501305/236 "2009-07-06T02:15:49Z")
According to the [_Washington Post:_](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/07/05/AR2009070500280.html?hpid=topnews) > [@](#): > > The refusal left thousands of Zelaya supporters on the ground shouting in disappointment and anger. Minutes earlier, soldiers and police had apparently opened fire on the crowd in a bid to keep pro-Zelaya demonstrators away from the runway, which had been blocked by troops. The Red Cross said two people had been shot, and there were conflicting reports on whether they had been killed. > > \ > > Asked why his government did not allow Zelaya to land and then arrest him, as officials have repeatedly threatened, Micheletti said that kind of publicity could incite violence. Well, OK, so long as violence is avoided, it’s all good . . . ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2009, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honduras-whos-correct/501305/237 "2009-07-06T13:27:42Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > I’m not a “we are the world, we are the people” kind of guy. I’m just someone who in this case is really enjoying the intellectual hypocrisy of the left, who for years bashed the right for supporting various semi-fascist coups in Latin America during the Cold War and have jumped on the band wagon of any populist/leftist politician who sticks their head up to attempt and wrest control of any of the many third world shit holes in the Western Hemisphere. Bwuh? Zelaya is accused **in reality** of attempting to further discussion of a maneuver that would increase democracy, by removing a limitation on whom the public could elect to power. There’s a good argument to be made for term limits and other limitations on democracy, but what he was doing was indisputably attempting to further discussion of removing a limit on democracy. So leftists who in the past opposed military coups are in this case opposing–wait for it–a military coup. Leftists in the past who supported increasing democracy are in this case supporting–wait for it–an increase in democracy. Maybe you meant to add the prefix “bizzaro-” to the front of the word “hypocrisy.” Because that’s the opposite of hypocrisy. That’s **consistency**. Now maybe you’re suggesting that leftists in the past who opposed actual coups are in this case supporting a theoretical imaginary possible future coup, if “coup” is defined as something that happens through a free and fair election. I suppose if your bar for hypocrisy is really really low, that might count. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2009, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honduras-whos-correct/501305/238 "2009-07-06T14:15:54Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > The conflict that America’s founding fathers faced was that they wanted popular consent of the governed without allowing for mob rule. That is perfectly true – but has it never occurred to you that the Founding Fathers might not have been **right** about everything? You really should read [_The Frozen Republic: How the Constitution Is Paralyzing Democracy,_](http://www.amazon.com/Frozen-Republic-Constitution-Paralyzing-Democracy/dp/0156004941) by Daniel Lazare. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2009, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honduras-whos-correct/501305/239 "2009-07-06T19:31:23Z")
**BG** , thought you might be interested in reading this article as it tears apart most of the BS that has been spread by the MSM and, especially the WaPo: [**A Few Facts About the Honduran Military Coup**](http://harpers.org/archive/2009/07/hbc-90005301) ---
**Author:** ![Frodo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/frodo/32/302_2.png) [@Frodo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frodo)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2009, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honduras-whos-correct/501305/240 "2009-07-06T19:36:20Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > **BG** , thought you might be interested in reading this article as it tears apart most of the BS that has been spread by the MSM and, especially the WaPo: > > [**A Few Facts About the Honduran Military Coup**](http://harpers.org/archive/2009/07/hbc-90005301) "Based on his response to events in Honduras, Barack Obama may as well be Ronald Reagan or George Bush when it comes to coups in Latin America. " Whiskey Tango Foxtrot? Have they been living in Narnia or Middle Earth the past 8 years? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honduras-whos-correct/501305.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honduras-whos-correct/501305.md?page=13)