# Honduras: Who's correct? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 29, 2009, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honduras-whos-correct/501305 "2009-06-29T02:13:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![Frodo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/frodo/32/302_2.png) [@Frodo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frodo)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2009, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honduras-whos-correct/501305/241 "2009-07-06T19:40:31Z")
The coup government foreign minister is really something “The (US) president of the republic, with all due respect to the little black man (‘negrito’), doesn’t know where Tegucigalpa is. We know where Washington is and we’re are obligated, as a small country, a democratic pygmy, to clarify the concepts for him and read to him, maybe in his language, what’s going on.”" “Negrito” ! I’m dying to find a spanish version of this quote just to savour the complete idiocy and racism of the man, sadly i cant accede youtube at work. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2009, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honduras-whos-correct/501305/242 "2009-07-06T20:25:04Z")
> [@Frodo](#): > > The coup government foreign minister is really something > > “The (US) president of the republic, with all due respect to the little black man (‘negrito’), doesn’t know where Tegucigalpa is. We know where Washington is and we’re are obligated, as a small country, a democratic pygmy, to clarify the concepts for him and read to him, maybe in his language, what’s going on.”" > > “Negrito” ! > > I’m dying to find a spanish version of this quote just to savour the complete idiocy and racism of the man, sadly i cant accede youtube at work. Coming from the area, I can report that it depends on the context if “negrito” is insulting, in this case it clearly is. I do remember that when it is said in disdain or anger it is equal as calling a black man “black boy”. [http://incakolanews.blogspot.com/2009/07/hondurass-de-facto-chancellor-obama-is.html](http://incakolanews.blogspot.com/2009/07/hondurass-de-facto-chancellor-obama-is.html) > [@](#): > > UPDATE: I’ve had a couple of mails from people about what this Ortez scumbag actually said about Obama, so here goes with a bit more. His precise words in Spanish were “Ese negrito que no sabe nada de nada”. I decided to translate this as “that little black man who knows nothing” or “that little black man who doesn’t know anything” to stay away from the controversial side of the statement and be as bland as possible. In fact the use of the word “negrito”, i.e. the diminuitive of “negro”, is very derogatory in nature and overtly racist in context; the kind of racism that would force the resignation of any public figure in the USA (for example). One mailer offered up the translation of “that know-nothing black boy” to get the proper feeling of the message implied by Ortez, and although it’s extremely difficult to hit the translatory nail on the head in this case, I’d tend to agree that the offered translation captures the sentiment better than my deliberately bland version. Another way of catching the drift would be “That blackie that knows nothing about anything”, or even “That negro…” would work, even the other “N” word would be a fair translation of what he meant. > > The bottom line is that Ortez’s statement, alongside the equally offensive words he has for Zapatero and the nation of El Salvador (note Revolter’s comment below and Google up about the “football war” if you haven’t heard about it previously) is dripping with bigotry and hatred. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2009, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honduras-whos-correct/501305/243 "2009-07-06T20:35:40Z")
> [@Frodo](#): > > …I’m dying to find a spanish version of this quote just to savour the complete idiocy and racism of the man, sadly i cant accede youtube at work. Well, you’ve got the comments, now you have [the video](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lGcc4LCp16Y). > [@](#): > > _ **…Ellos permiten lo que sea. Ya Estados Unidos no es el defensor de la democracia. En primer lugar el presidente de la república, que lo respeto, el negrito, no conoce dónde queda Tegucigalpa…** _ **[They allow anything. The United States is no longer the defender of democracy. First off the president of the republic, whom I respect :rolleyes: , the black boy, doesn’t know where Tegucigalpa is..]** – Translation and rolleyes mine. ---
**Author:** ![Frodo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/frodo/32/302_2.png) [@Frodo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frodo)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2009, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honduras-whos-correct/501305/244 "2009-07-06T21:53:28Z")
We have a firm nomination for “Great moments in human stupidity”! Your coup only (faint) hope resides in Obama looking to the other side and not cutting aid to your country, and you call him a “negrito”. By god, these clowns want to govern a country… ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2009, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honduras-whos-correct/501305/245 "2009-07-08T16:10:41Z")
[Zelaya and Micheletti are meeting in Costa Rica Thursday to negotiate.](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/07/07/AR2009070702174.html?hpid=sec-world) Costa Rican President Oscar Arias will mediate. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2009, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honduras-whos-correct/501305/246 "2009-07-09T18:06:32Z")
[Interview with Zelaya.](http://www.democracynow.org/2009/7/9/in_rare_us_broadcast_ousted_honduran) ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2009, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honduras-whos-correct/501305/247 "2009-07-09T22:29:45Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > [Zelaya and Micheletti are meeting in Costa Rica Thursday to negotiate.](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/07/07/AR2009070702174.html?hpid=sec-world) Costa Rican President Oscar Arias will mediate. This is a mischaracterization of what is happening (the text in your link, not the linked article). They are not meeting. Rather, they are engaging in discussion with Arias, who is acting as a go-between. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2009, 11:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honduras-whos-correct/501305/248 "2009-07-10T11:36:35Z")
> [@DSYoungEsq](#): > > This is a mischaracterization of what is happening (the text in your link, not the linked article). They are not meeting. Rather, they are engaging in discussion with Arias, who is acting as a go-between. And even your post needs to be qualified as Zelaya’s foreign minister, they are not there to “negotiate” but rather to determine the conditions of the restitution of the constitutional President. [Link in Spanish.](http://www.telesurtv.net/noticias/secciones/nota/53792-NN/canciller-rodas-no-estamos-negociando-el-regreso-de-zelaya/) In any event, no agreement of any kind. Zelaya continues his globe-trotting ways with stops in Guatemala and the Dom Rep today. De de facto President, Micheletti, back to Honduras. ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2009, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honduras-whos-correct/501305/249 "2009-07-10T15:45:30Z")
Yes, it’s kind of silly to mediate between one side that says, “We must be allowed to return!” and another side that says, “No way will they be allowed to return!” Nothing in this scenario will change unless/until Honduras begins experiencing some significant effects from international condemnation, significant enough to force the de facto leadership into negotiating a different result. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2009, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honduras-whos-correct/501305/250 "2009-07-10T15:51:30Z")
> [@DSYoungEsq](#): > > This is a mischaracterization of what is happening (the text in your link, not the linked article). They are not meeting. Rather, they are engaging in discussion with Arias, who is acting as a go-between. Well, at any rate, [negotiations appear deadlocked.](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/07/09/AR2009070901832.html) There’s got to be a fair way to resolve this – what do you think, caged death-match or nude mud-wrestling? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2009, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honduras-whos-correct/501305/251 "2009-07-10T15:59:32Z")
> [@DSYoungEsq](#): > > Yes, it’s kind of silly to mediate between one side that says, “We must be allowed to return!” and another side that says, “No way will they be allowed to return!” > > Nothing in this scenario will change unless/until Honduras begins experiencing some significant effects from international condemnation, significant enough to force the de facto leadership into negotiating a different result. Well, Honduras was getting a lot of oil from Venezuela, which Chavez has now embargoed. That’s gotta hurt. ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2009, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honduras-whos-correct/501305/252 "2009-07-10T16:06:42Z")
LA Times Opinion section today has an interesting article on the legality of the ouster (yeah - Miguel Estrada, I know): > **[When a coup isn't](https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-2009-jul-10-oe-estrada10-story.html)** > > Honduras' non-coup > [@](#): > > Article 239 specifically states that any president who so much as proposes the permissibility of reelection “shall cease forthwith” in his duties, and Article 4 provides that any “infraction” of the succession rules constitutes treason. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2009, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honduras-whos-correct/501305/253 "2009-07-10T18:06:23Z")
> [@Algher](#): > > LA Times Opinion section today has an interesting article on the legality of the ouster (yeah - Miguel Estrada, I know): > > [When a coup isn't](http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/la-oe-estrada10-2009jul10,0,1570598.story) As mentioned before, it was not a referendum. The congress acted on the letter of resignation from Zelaya to appoint Micheletti. Mr. Estrada, like all before him, refuses to deal with the fact that the resignation document was obviously an illegal document, falsified or obtained at gun point. Saying that he should be arrested and then turn around and deny him entry in Honduras shows that it was a coup, putting a puppet of the military, even if it is a civilian, does not deny that it was a coup either. ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2009, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honduras-whos-correct/501305/254 "2009-07-10T18:11:40Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > As mentioned before, it was not a referendum. > > The congress acted on the letter of resignation from Zelaya to appoint Micheletti. Mr. Estrada, like all before him, refuses to deal with the fact that the resignation document was obviously an illegal document, falsified or obtained at gun point. > > Saying that he should be arrested and then turn around and deny him entry in Honduras shows that it was a coup, putting a puppet of the military, even if it is a civilian, does not deny that it was a coup either. The Honduran Congress and Honduran Supreme Court appear to disagree with you. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2009, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honduras-whos-correct/501305/255 "2009-07-10T18:36:57Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > :dubious: How many instances can you name in modern history where the military, acting as an independent domestic political force, has been a beneficial force? I’m not exactly in favor of the violent overthrow of democratically elected governments but doesn’t the Pakistani military at least act as a stabilizing relatively independent political force? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2009, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honduras-whos-correct/501305/256 "2009-07-10T19:00:23Z")
> [@Algher](#): > > The Honduran Congress and Honduran Supreme Court appear to disagree with you. A crime is a crime even if the authorities are in favor of it. BTW they have not been willing or able to explain my previous points. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2009, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honduras-whos-correct/501305/257 "2009-07-10T20:43:53Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > I’m not exactly in favor of the violent overthrow of democratically elected governments but doesn’t the Pakistani military at least act as a stabilizing relatively independent political force? Definitely not! No more than the Revolutionary Guard Corps in Iran! Unless you equate “unchallengeable” with “stabilizing.” ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2009, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honduras-whos-correct/501305/258 "2009-07-10T21:19:45Z")
Well, they do induce a permanent state of stability for some. Don’t get any more stable than that. ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2009, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honduras-whos-correct/501305/259 "2009-07-10T22:21:31Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > A crime is a crime even if the authorities are in favor of it. > > BTW they have not been willing or able to explain my previous points. Not in favor of it - interpreting their law. The Congress voted to dump him. The Supreme Court said this his firing of the military head was illegal. He was told that he could NOT hold a referendum on eliminating term limits, so he had ballots printed by Chavez. Now, I would happily see a link that shows that Estrada’s quotes of applicable Honduran Law are false, but I have not seen that in this thread. Why do we backj one man, when the Congress (including members of his own party), the Supreme Court, and the military) seem to be together in thinking that his term was done. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2009, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honduras-whos-correct/501305/260 "2009-07-10T22:29:40Z")
> [@Algher](#): > > Not in favor of it - interpreting their law. The whole world has figure it out with very little problem. It was a coup. > [@](#): > > The Congress voted to dump him. > The Supreme Court said this his firing of the military head was illegal. > He was told that he could NOT hold a referendum on eliminating term limits, so he had ballots printed by Chavez. > > Now, I would happily see a link that shows that Estrada’s quotes of applicable Honduran Law are false, but I have not seen that in this thread. As a citizen of Honduras he deserved to face his accusers, that was not done. The quote of why that was illegal was furnished by **RedFury** And to top it off, once again, you do not combat an alleged crime with an ever bigger one. > [@](#): > > Why do we backj one man, when the Congress (including members of his own party), the Supreme Court, and the military) seem to be together in thinking that his term was done. Because when a coup happens, that is not democracy. Once again, a good deal (if not the majority) of the people was in favor of the coup in Ecuador in 2000, still the OAS and the USA applied pressure to make the coup plotters back down. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honduras-whos-correct/501305.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honduras-whos-correct/501305.md?page=14)