# Honduras: Who's correct? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 29, 2009, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honduras-whos-correct/501305 "2009-06-29T02:13:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2009, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honduras-whos-correct/501305/261 "2009-07-10T22:41:43Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Well, Honduras was getting a lot of oil from Venezuela, which Chavez has now embargoed. That’s gotta hurt. Actually, IIRC, when the coup happened, and President Chavez was blustering, it was pointed out that Honduras actually got relatively little oil or oil products from Venezuela, limiting the influence of Venezuela economically in the situation. Do you happen to know what imports of oil were? ETA: Not that it matters much, if all the world refuses to supply oil. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2009, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honduras-whos-correct/501305/262 "2009-07-10T22:57:12Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > The whole world has figure it out with very little problem. > > It was a coup. > As a citizen of Honduras he deserved to face his accusers, that was not done. > > The quote of why that was illegal was furnished by **RedFury** > > And to top it off, once again, you do not combat an alleged crime with an ever bigger one. > Because when a coup happens, that is not democracy. > > Once again, a good deal (if not the majority) of the people was in favor of the coup in Ecuador in 2000, still the OAS and the USA applied pressure to make the coup plotters back down. I (and the Estrada opinion piece) agree that exiling him was wrong. They should have tossed him in jail instead. I am still waiting for someone to show me that the Supreme Court of Honduras was wrong in their interpretation of Honduran law regarding his actions. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2009, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honduras-whos-correct/501305/263 "2009-07-10T23:04:34Z")
> [@Algher](#): > > I (and the Estrada opinion piece) agree that exiling him was wrong. They should have tossed him in jail instead. > > I am still waiting for someone to show me that the Supreme Court of Honduras was wrong in their interpretation of Honduran law regarding his actions. Irrelevant. Really, what I see the right in the USA doing in this case is only an effort to avoid dealing with the current issue, IMHO if Zelaya returns he needs to be taken to task or with the understanding that he will call off any efforts to change the constitution. And as it happened in Ecuador after the negotiations, the deposed president did not return to power but the coup plotters had to give up. The vice president (that was chosen by the deposed president) took over. What I’m saying here is that while I consider your points irrelevant because they are not the crime at hand, it is very likely that items like the accusations from the courts against Zelaya are going to be even \*\*more \*\*irrelevant after the negotiations. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2009, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honduras-whos-correct/501305/264 "2009-07-10T23:06:04Z")
Why does Honduras even **have** an army? It’s not like they have any territorially aggressive neighbors. Costa Rica gets along fine without an army, IIRC. ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2009, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honduras-whos-correct/501305/265 "2009-07-10T23:14:22Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Why does Honduras even **have** an army? It’s not like they have any territorially aggressive neighbors. Costa Rica gets along fine without an army, IIRC. Niceragua was seen as a risk for territorial expansion during the 80s (at least according my Honduran friends at the time). ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2009, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honduras-whos-correct/501305/266 "2009-07-10T23:15:46Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Irrelevant. > > Really, what I see the right in the USA doing in this case is only an effort to avoid dealing with the current issue, IMHO if Zelaya returns he needs to be taken to task or with the understanding that he will call off any efforts to change the constitution. > > And as it happened in Ecuador after the negotiations, the deposed president did not return to power but the coup plotters had to give up. The vice president (that was chosen by the deposed president) took over. > > What I’m saying here is that while I consider your points irrelevant because they are not the crime at hand, it is very likely that items like the accusations from the courts against Zelaya are going to be even \*\*more \*\*irrelevant after the negotiations. How can you say that the (alleged) criminal actions of Zelaya are irrelevant? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2009, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honduras-whos-correct/501305/267 "2009-07-10T23:18:21Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Why does Honduras even **have** an army? It’s not like they have any territorially aggressive neighbors. Costa Rica gets along fine without an army, IIRC. Well, El Salvador and Honduras fought against each other back in 1969. Because Honduras removed both documented and undocumented Salvadoreans from Honduras there was war, because of the exiled coming back to El Salvador we got one of the seeds of the revolution in the 80’s in El Salvador. (The other seeds being electoral fraud and repression) Then the Sandinistas took over Nicaragua and the US and the Honduran army supported the contras. So there is an explanation why there is an army, but one can indeed ask why it remains so influential when there are now no revolutions or territorial conflicts in the area since the 90’s. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2009, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honduras-whos-correct/501305/268 "2009-07-10T23:20:23Z")
> [@Algher](#): > > How can you say that the (alleged) criminal actions of Zelaya are irrelevant? Reality. Either by the negotiations causing the charges to be dropped, or by Zelaya taking over Honduras thanks to the international and the internal pressures. ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2009, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honduras-whos-correct/501305/269 "2009-07-10T23:40:04Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Reality. > > Either by the negotiations causing the charges to be dropped, or by Zelaya taking over Honduras thanks to the international and the internal pressures. So why bother with a Constitution, Supreme Court and Congress if Chavez and Obama are going to tell you who your President is. I guess they should dissolve the Congress and cease elections - just put Zel into office as El Presidente for Life. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2009, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honduras-whos-correct/501305/270 "2009-07-10T23:42:07Z")
One more thing, what I said are things that will be dismissed if there are negotiations, IMHO the coup plotters are really deluded if they think they will get a better deal if they refuse to negotiate in good faith. Because in reality it is not clear that all Hondurans are in favor of the coup. [http://narcosphere.narconews.com/notebook/kristin-bricker/2009/07/honduran-teachers-defy-coup-government-maintain-strike](http://narcosphere.narconews.com/notebook/kristin-bricker/2009/07/honduran-teachers-defy-coup-government-maintain-strike) > [@](#): > > Likewise, the Honduran people have demonstrated their resolve to oppose the coup government, no matter the cost. On Monday, just one day after Honduran security forces opened fire on an unarmed crowd of Zelaya supporters at the airport, resulting in one death and a still-unknown number of injuries, thousands of Zelaya supporters took to the streets for the ninth straight day, with protests reported in Tegucigalpa, San Pedro Sula, and El Progreso. > > Meanwhile, Radio America reports that schools across the country remain shuttered on Monday as part of a national strike called by the Federation of Teachers Organizations of Honduras (FOMH, the Honduran teachers union). The strike continues despite pressures from the coup government to resume classes. The Micheletti regime’s Ministry of Education spent the weekend ordering teachers back to classes. Teachers and their families called into Radio Progreso over the weekend decrying strong pressures from the Micheletti government to return to classes. [http://narcosphere.narconews.com/thefield/zero-hour-honduras-presidents-plane-approaches-tegucigalpa](http://narcosphere.narconews.com/thefield/zero-hour-honduras-presidents-plane-approaches-tegucigalpa) (I do not swallow everything from the opposition, they claimed 500,000 Zelaya supporters on the way to the airport, but more likely they were 30,000) What I do think is that pressure is needed, not only to make the coup plotters negotiate, but also to prevent them from making even more repressive moves against the people in Honduras. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2009, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honduras-whos-correct/501305/271 "2009-07-10T23:45:00Z")
> [@Algher](#): > > So why bother with a Constitution, Supreme Court and Congress if Chavez and Obama are going to tell you who your President is. > > I guess they should dissolve the Congress and cease elections - just put Zel into office as El Presidente for Life. Misguided sarcasm does not make a point. Once again, the big crime was the coup, even if one could make the point that it was a popular thing to do (and I doubt that) the right in Honduras will have to swallow their democratic medicine, just like the left in Ecuador had to in 2000. ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2009, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honduras-whos-correct/501305/272 "2009-07-11T00:24:40Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Misguided sarcasm does not make a point. > > Once again, the big crime was the coup, even if one could make the point that it was a popular thing to do (and I doubt that) the right in Honduras will have to swallow their democratic medicine, just like the left in Ecuador had to in 2000. The other big crime was the President overreaching his office, and allying with a foreign nation in an attempt to grab more power and possibly install himself as President for Life (like Chavez). The procedural mistake was exile using masked military instead of having police arrest and hold impeachment proceedings (or whatever the equivalent is in the Honduran Constitution). ---
**Author:** ![Frodo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/frodo/32/302_2.png) [@Frodo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frodo)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2009, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honduras-whos-correct/501305/273 "2009-07-11T00:33:00Z")
I think, that we all can agree that the current Honduran government lost any legitimacy when forged the President resignation letter and then kidnapped him and dumped him in other country in the middle of the night. However, Zelaya was found to be in violation of Honduran law by the country’s supreme court(whenever we think of them in light of their actions, they are the interpreters of Honduran law) Since the Honduran Constituition has no impeachment procedures (ooops!) I think he should return and be judged by Honduran law. Wether or not he returns to his post is, I think, a matter impossible to decide after what happened, but the current government should not profit from their coup, perhaps a new election should be called? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2009, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honduras-whos-correct/501305/274 "2009-07-11T00:58:05Z")
> [@Algher](#): > > The other big crime was the President overreaching his office, and allying with a foreign nation in an attempt to grab more power and possibly install himself as President for Life (like Chavez). Now we are getting into pre-crime territory. Please, “Minority Report” was a movie. > [@](#): > > The procedural mistake was exile using masked military instead of having police arrest and hold impeachment proceedings (or whatever the equivalent is in the Honduran Constitution). Unfortunately IIRC the Honduras constitution makes it almost impossible to impeach the president. You see, the Honduras constitution was made during the era of dictatorships. Had to protect the military thugs of the past don’t you know. Of course a solution would be to change the constitution, but because the de facto rulers scream that they can not change it and acted to prevent any changes… well, that is why all governments outside Honduras are not swallowing their points. And more importantly, not all in Honduras do it either. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2009, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honduras-whos-correct/501305/275 "2009-07-11T04:04:49Z")
[Interview with Dr. Juan Almendares](http://www.democracynow.org/2009/7/10/costa_rica_hosts_talk_over_honduras) (who ran against Zelaya in the last election but is supporting his cause now). > [@](#): > > But what I want to say is the resistance movements is posing the issue in the way that the problem is not only the constitutional restitution and coming back President Zelaya, the problem is people want a new constitution. People want assembly. People want more participation, more actors in the process. So, this is very important because they had to be in the table. They cannot only be discussions between Michelleti and Zelaya. People want to claim justice, justice and justice. ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2009, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honduras-whos-correct/501305/276 "2009-07-12T21:16:35Z")
A decent updated overview and timeline in today’s LA Times: > **[How a president is overthrown](https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-2009-jul-12-fg-honduras-coup12-story.html)** > > Honduras had a new kind of coup ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2009, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honduras-whos-correct/501305/277 "2009-07-24T22:15:54Z")
[Zelaya returned to Honduras but he didn’t stay long.](http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601086&sid=a3sak4ETyq7Y) It’s like he’s **teasing** them . . . ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2009, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honduras-whos-correct/501305/278 "2009-07-27T19:55:42Z")
Micheletti has a piece in today’s WSJ: [http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204886304574311083177158174.html](http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204886304574311083177158174.html) > [@](#): > > Let’s review some fundamental facts that cannot be disputed: > > • The Supreme Court, by a 15-0 vote, found that Mr. Zelaya had acted illegally by proceeding with an unconstitutional “referendum,” and it ordered the Armed Forces to arrest him. The military executed the arrest order of the Supreme Court because it was the appropriate agency to do so under Honduran law. > > • Eight of the 15 votes on the Supreme Court were cast by members of Mr. Zelaya’s own Liberal Party. Strange that the pro-Zelaya propagandists who talk about the rule of law forget to mention the unanimous Supreme Court decision with a majority from Mr. Zelaya’s own party. Thus, Mr. Zelaya’s arrest was at the instigation of Honduran’s constitutional and civilian authorities—not the military. > > • The Honduran Congress voted overwhelmingly in support of removing Mr. Zelaya. The vote included a majority of members of Mr. Zelaya’s Liberal Party. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2009, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honduras-whos-correct/501305/279 "2009-07-27T20:09:56Z")
> [@Algher](#): > > Micheletti has a piece in today’s WSJ: > > [http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204886304574311083177158174.html](http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204886304574311083177158174.html) Worthless propaganda from the coup plotters. Once again, he is just implying that the resignation document that magically appeared and allowed the congress to vote for him was valid. The army had no order to expel Zelaya from the country. Finally, Micheletty just comes to me as a coward for not realizing that if Zelaya does not agree into following any negotiated conditions for his return, it will be then Zelaya going against the world and the Honduras army. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2009, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honduras-whos-correct/501305/280 "2009-07-29T15:38:34Z")
More interesting analysis from [_The Nation:_](http://www.thenation.com/doc/20090803/grandin) > [@](#): > > Reading the major Honduran newspapers or watching news on Honduran TV is like entering a time warp back to the censorious days of the cold war, with one story after another trumpeting Micheletti’s virtues. After Honduran troops shot and killed a 19-year-old protester, La Prensa, a major daily, ran a doctored photo of the boy’s limp body, with the blood that was still pouring out of his head airbrushed away. Billboards with smiling faces of well-fed peasants (more than 40 percent of Hondurans live on a dollar a day) thanking Micheletti for defending democracy adorn major thoroughfares. Alternative media outlets–mostly radio and television stations in the provinces, not owned by a coup-supporting family–have been occupied and threatened. CNN was shut down for a period, and Telesur, the Spanish-language news network sponsored by, among other countries, Venezuela, Argentina and Bolivia, is off the air (in covering the border standoff, CNN in Spanish is primarily using video feed from Telesur, which highlights the importance of that network as an information source). Every evening, the government takes over cable and broadcast channels to announce the hours of the next day’s curfew. > > What specifically did Zelaya do to conjure these malevolent spirits of the cold war past? The US press has focused on his efforts to build support for a constitutional assembly, misrepresenting the effort as a power grab when in fact the proposal to revise the Constitution was broadly supported by social movements as an effort to democratize Honduras’s notoriously exclusive political system. The business community didn’t like Zelaya because he raised the minimum wage. Conservative evangelicals and Catholics–including Opus Dei, a formidable presence in Honduras–detested him because he refused to ban the “morning-after” pill. The mining, hydroelectric and biofuel sector didn’t like him because he didn’t put state funds and land at their disposal. The law-and-order crowd hated him because he apologized on behalf of the state for a program of “social cleansing” that took place in the 1990s, which included the execution of street children and gang members. And the generals didn’t like it when he tried to assert executive control over the military. Similar to the armed forces in Guatemala and El Salvador, the Honduran military after the cold war diversified its portfolio, with its officers investing heavily in both legitimate and illegitimate businesses, such as the narcotics trade, illegal logging, and illicit adoptions. In 1993 the general who carried out the coup, Romeo Vasquez Velasquez–trained in the School of the Americas–had been arrested and charged with running a car-theft ring. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honduras-whos-correct/501305.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honduras-whos-correct/501305.md?page=15)