# Honduras: Who's correct? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 29, 2009, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honduras-whos-correct/501305 "2009-06-29T02:13:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2009, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honduras-whos-correct/501305/41 "2009-06-29T21:56:04Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > …When leftist Presidents in Latin America _actually do this_, and are clearly trying to make themselves dictators, the left cheers them on… _What_ leftist Presidents of Latin America? Can you give us the top ten examples of our odious hypocrisy? Would you like a list of the savage right-wing autocrats we have supported/installed in Central and South America, men easily identified by their dark-green aviator sunglasses and the bright crimson awash from hand to elbow? Did you trot out Mr. Jefferson to support the Sandinistas when they revolted against the odious Samoza regime? Is this why you feel justified in delivering stern lectures on the hypocrisy of the left? ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2009, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honduras-whos-correct/501305/42 "2009-06-29T23:02:32Z")
Regardless of whether or not the President of Honduras was engaging in an attempt to subtly overthrow the true concept of democracy in Honduras, and replace it with the barely disguised dictatorship of Venezuela, the method of stopping this transition should not be to engage in a military coup. All that does is sabotage democracy even more substantially, for if the military cannot be trusted to stay out of political squabbles, and will jump in on the side of whomever they support, what trust can the people of the country have that their democratically decided results will be maintained? It should also be kept in mind that, if a country does like Venezuela appears to have done, and allows a dictatorship (or something of the like) to take hold of it through democratic means, then that is in itself a manifestation of the will of the people of that country, as surely as any other democratic result. Sometimes, a country isn’t really ready to be a democracy, yet. This was true of France in the late 1700s and early 1800s; it took until the removal of Napoleon III before the French finally figured out that the benefits of true democracy were worth the downsides. Mexico was a putative democracy for most of the 1900s without being a real democracy, because the government established a one-party state (and we kept worrying about Cuba, which I used to find enormously ironic as a teen in the 70s!); look at how far Mexico has progressed now, and how far they still have to go. Finally, we should be wary of the claims of the elite in government in Honduras. Like many Latin American countries, its government is often controlled by the upper-middle-class, the businesspeople of the nation, and the elite wealthy. They see someone like a Chávez as a real threat, because he finds his power from the poor in society, a group of people who are rarely provided with any true advantages by the governing business owners. Understandably, they fear the reorganization of power that can occur if the underclasses get their hands on the machinery of government. This does not justify their attempts to halt such a reorganization through illegal means. It has put the United States in a very bad position. If we do not call for the return to power of the elected president, we will appear to be falling back into our “bad” ways that have made us almost uniformly despised in Latin America. On the other hand, if we help reinstate the President, we validate him and his efforts to effectively emasculate democracy in the country, and we will be providing a substantial feather for the cap of Chávez, Morales, the Castros, and their ilk. Nothing like being between a rock and a very, very hard place. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2009, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honduras-whos-correct/501305/43 "2009-06-29T23:20:29Z")
> [@DSYoungEsq](#): > > Finally, we should be wary of the claims of the elite in government in Honduras. Like many Latin American countries, its government is often controlled by the upper-middle-class, the businesspeople of the nation, and the elite wealthy. Or, as **athelas** would say, “the nation’s best and brightest.” :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![athelas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5e9695/32.png) [@athelas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/athelas)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2009, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honduras-whos-correct/501305/44 "2009-06-29T23:21:50Z")
There is some confusion as to whether or not the army acted at the behest of the Supreme Court. [From here:](http://faustasblog.com/?p=13639) > [@](#): > > Indeed, Honduras’ La Prensa states that (My translation: If you use this, please credit me and link to this post) > > An official statement of the Supreme Court of Justice explained that the Armed Forces acted under lawful grounds when detaining the President of the Republic, and by decommissioning the materials to be used on the illegal poll which aimed to bring forth Executive Power against a judicial order. > Other sources verified that the president of the Congress, Roberto Micheletti, will assume the presidency of the republic in a few hours. > Honduran president Manuel Zelaya was detained this morning by the military in compliance with an order of the courts of law. This does not say whether or not the action was pre-approved at the time. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2009, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honduras-whos-correct/501305/45 "2009-06-30T00:03:54Z")
At any rate, [the coup is getting no support outside Honduras:](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_Honduran_political_crisis#International_reaction) > [@](#): > > Every Latin American nation (besides Honduras), plus the United States, Spain, France, and others, have publicly condemned the forced removal of Zelaya as undemocratic and most have labelled it as a coup d’état. Amongst the many reactions, Hugo Chávez, President of Venezuela, said that his nation will respond militarily if the Honduran military enters the Venezuelan embassy and that such an action would indicate a “de-facto state of war”.[37] President of Paraguay Fernando Lugo said that the coup participants belong in prison.[38] Americas-based international organizations such as the Organization of American States, Mercosur, and the Bolivarian Alternative for the Americas have also condemned the events. No nation has publicly declared support for the Honduran military’s actions or for the new acting President Roberto Micheletti, with the exception of Honduras itself. Of course, condemnation does not necessarily imply intervention, nor even sanctions. ---
**Author:** ![Frodo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/frodo/32/302_2.png) [@Frodo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frodo)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2009, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honduras-whos-correct/501305/46 "2009-06-30T00:04:29Z")
I seriously thought that most Americans (from the United States of) had finally understood the lessons of the past about propping up dictatorships on Latin America, I see that is not the case and it saddens me :(. Of course, this time, Obama is in power and is acting like a decent adult, but he will not be president forever :(. Is that difficult to understand that the military does not have to depose presidents?, the military is \*\*\*subordinate to the political process \*\*\* they are NOT a branch of the State, they obey orders from democratically elected functionaries. FULL STOP. Tens of thousands (if not hundreds) have died in Latin America, due to military dictatorships, most of them applauded by the likes of Athelas. Its over, no more, please understand, things like that are the answer when you ask “why people in other places dislike America?, we are a beacon of freedom etc etc”. As someone who has been often accused of being too pro-american for defending the things you do right (and I do think you do many things right) I ask a favor, dont make my work more difficult in those discussions. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2009, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honduras-whos-correct/501305/47 "2009-06-30T00:50:23Z")
> [@Frodo](#): > > …Of course, this time, Obama is in power and is acting like a decent adult, but he will not be president forever :(… We’re working on that. We had him walk on water, but then they just said its because he can’t swim. > [@](#): > > …As someone who has been often accused of being too pro-american for defending the things you do right (and I do think you do many things right) I ask a favor, dont make my work more difficult in those discussions. As a red-blooded, flag-waving, All-American radical, I can relate. Boy, can I ever _relate!_ As you note, things are somewhat different, somewhat improved. We got here, we can get there. _Venceremos._ ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2009, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honduras-whos-correct/501305/48 "2009-06-30T02:29:13Z")
Can’t/won’t translate the following article due to both it length and scope, but I haven’t found a clearer explanation in any language of exactly what and how happened in Honduras over the course of the past few days. [**Las claves para entender qué pasa en Honduras**](http://www.escolar.net/MT/archives/2009/06/las-claves-para-entender-que-pasa-en-honduras.html) In short: 1-Contrary to what some are parroting here, Zelaya would not have been up for re-election even if the poll (which is what it was) was favorable to extending the current one-term limit. There was simply no time to reform the Constitution beyond the fact that Zelaya himself had clearly stated he wouldn’t run anyway. 2-The law that Congress approved, denying the right to any kind of referendum 180 days prior to elections was an _ad-hoc_ measure taken to prevent Zelaya from going forth with it [the poll]. 3-While it is true that the Honduran Constitution prohibits (and considers it treason) any attempt by a public servant to append it with regards to term limits and “national unity,” one must also consider that it was originally written under close scrutiny of the military Junta who approved the transition in 1982. 3-Ultimately, all that Zelaya was asking was to give the Honduran people a say about their political system. How very undemocratic of him. 4-Whether you agree or disagree with the man himself, what remains clear is that the Armed Forces of a nation are not there to resolve matters of Constitutional Law. That they had the unmitigated gall to bring-up a non-existent “letter of resignation” by Zelaya just shows how farcical this whole coup is. Lastly, all I’ve written above – and much much more – is **backed and cited** in the original article I’ve linked to. Thank Og that at least there is an adult in the WH in this case as opposed to the almost endless other times when right-wing coups where routinely promoted by the PTB Stateside. Condemnation is damn near universal. I very much doubt they’ll be able to get away with this one. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2009, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honduras-whos-correct/501305/49 "2009-06-30T02:42:27Z")
Any idea on how the foreign policy of Chiquita Banana impacts? ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2009, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honduras-whos-correct/501305/50 "2009-06-30T02:56:25Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Any idea on how the foreign policy of Chiquita Banana impacts? Well, no need to tell you the long history of said policy in the region and more specifically Honduras – I’ll just throw out the name “Negroponte” and let you take it from there. But as to current events, ISFAIK, I am happy to report that this appears to be an event solely concocted by the Honduran oligarchies. Certainly Obama’s strong repudiation of the coup and pleas for a re-establishment of the rule of law give me some added comfort in that regard. All that said, not sure I want to keep digging (as I’ve been doing for the past 12 hours or so) so as not to find more of same old. Because _that_ would be the real coup, and with it, pretty much the end of hope in our lifetimes anyway. > [@Monsignor Oscar Romero](#): > > \*\*…cuando les pido a la alta sociedad caridad para los pobres indigenas, que no tiene nada para echarse a la boca, me llaman un cura bueno. > > Cuando les pido justicia social para las capas más pobres del País, los indigenas, esas mismas señoras y sociedad mas pudiente, me llaman Revolucionario…\*\* ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2009, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honduras-whos-correct/501305/51 "2009-06-30T03:32:44Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > > [@Monsignor Oscar Romero](#): > > > > …cuando les pido a la alta sociedad caridad para los pobres indigenas, que no tiene nada para echarse a la boca, me llaman un cura bueno. > > > > Cuando les pido justicia social para las capas más pobres del País, los indigenas, esas mismas señoras y sociedad mas pudiente, me llaman Revolucionario… Romero?! :dubious: What a prolix language is teh Spanish! How many words can a language need to say **BRRRRRAAAAAIIIIIHHHHNNNNZZZZZ!!!** ---
**Author:** ![TheMadHun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/53a042/32.png) [@TheMadHun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheMadHun)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2009, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honduras-whos-correct/501305/52 "2009-06-30T03:35:22Z")
I support the army. Consider if George Bush had pushed for an end to term limits despite a losing court battle. Who would have stood up to him? The Hondurans at least had the army to cut off a new dictator in the making. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2009, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honduras-whos-correct/501305/53 "2009-06-30T03:49:35Z")
> [@TheMadHun](#): > > I support the army. Consider if George Bush had pushed for an end to term limits despite a losing court battle. Who would have stood up to him? :dubious: If the Army, America **still** would have been the worse for it. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2009, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honduras-whos-correct/501305/54 "2009-06-30T04:02:57Z")
> [@TheMadHun](#): > > I support the army. Consider if George Bush had pushed for an end to term limits despite a losing court battle. > Who would have stood up to him? The Hondurans at least had the army to cut off a new dictator in the making. Again, can someone explain why the president is not in jail waiting for a trial if they had the evidence that he was doing something illegal and the courts had ordered his arrest? No, moving him out of the country and at the same time claiming that he signed a resignation shows in spades that the military and the congress (that IMHO was not unanimous as they have tried to tell others) did not have the evidence or had no confidence on gaining a conviction. When now the press and people are being arrested and repressed one has also to doubt that all Hondurans are in favor of this. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2009, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honduras-whos-correct/501305/55 "2009-06-30T04:52:41Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Romero?! :dubious: What a prolix language is teh Spanish! How many words can a language need to say **BRRRRRAAAAAIIIIIHHHHNNNNZZZZZ!!!** Previously appeared in _Death Comes For the Archbishop_, IIRC. ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2009, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honduras-whos-correct/501305/56 "2009-06-30T04:57:26Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > :dubious: How many instances can you name in modern history where the military, acting as an independent domestic political force, has been a beneficial force? Turkey for one. The military has upheld Ataturk’s secular constitution for the best part of a century, quelling all attempts to move towards theocratic rule. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2009, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honduras-whos-correct/501305/57 "2009-06-30T05:01:45Z")
> [@TheMadHun](#): > > I support the army. Consider if George Bush had pushed for an end to term limits despite a losing court battle. > Who would have stood up to him? The Hondurans at least had the army to cut off a new dictator in the making. Get your facts straight. It was survey. A non-binding one at that. What you are actually “supporting” is the long standing practice of the US backing [rightwing coups in the region](http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/30/world/americas/30honduras.html?_r=2&hp). [**Obama says coup in Honduras is illegal**](http://www.reuters.com/article/newsOne/idUKTRE55S5J220090629) > [@President Obama](#): > > **We believe that the coup was not legal and that President Zelaya remains the president of Honduras, the democratically elected president there** Good thing there’s a new sheriff in town… ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2009, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honduras-whos-correct/501305/58 "2009-06-30T05:02:32Z")
> [@](#): > > Turkey for one… I notice you stop at one. Most guys would just list them on and on, but you show commendable restraint in not naming all of them, and just stopping at one. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2009, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honduras-whos-correct/501305/59 "2009-06-30T05:11:00Z")
As for the military in turkey, I guess is true that no one remembers the Armenians. ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2009, 6:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honduras-whos-correct/501305/60 "2009-06-30T06:46:10Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > I notice you stop at one. Most guys would just list them on and on, but you show commendable restraint in not naming all of them, and just stopping at one. One was enough to answer the implication that there were none (and such was the implication.) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honduras-whos-correct/501305.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honduras-whos-correct/501305.md?page=4)