# Honduras: Who's correct? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 29, 2009, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honduras-whos-correct/501305 "2009-06-29T02:13:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2009, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honduras-whos-correct/501305/161 "2009-07-02T02:41:00Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > I heard on the radio today the Admin announced it does not want to respond to this by any means that “would hurt Hondurans.” What does that even mean? The one thing that is “hurting” Honduras at the moment is the current unsustainable situation that’s made them a world pariah. > [@](#): > > 😕 Politically speaking, wouldn’t the World Bank prefer the new government to Zelaya’s? Not in the face of the counter-political pressure being applied – which once again, nation wise, is universal. There are only isolated rightwing groups/political parties within some of these nations that are trying to defend the coup. And, I might add, looking rather foolish while doing so. As for the source of my info, I’m afraid I’ve largely given up on English sources due to the paupacity of coverage of the situation. At least when compared to the fluid and ongoing coverage in Spanish/LA media. Anyway, that info in particular is from CNN en español: [**El BID y el BM ‘castigan’ a Honduras**](http://www.cnnexpansion.com/economia/2009/06/30/el-bid-y-el-bm-castigan-a-honduras) Apologies for not quoting and translating the article, but hopefully you’ll get the gist of it. If not, please post any particular quote you’d like to have translated and I’ll try to do so ASAP – if someone else doesn’t volunteer first. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2009, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honduras-whos-correct/501305/162 "2009-07-02T02:46:25Z")
> [@Frostillicus](#): > > Again, according to my GF, Zeyala, with the help of Hugo Chavez, was going to rig the upcoming election. With all due to both you and your GF, could either one of your provide some solid cites and not spread rumormongering of the worst kind in GD? Because, without evidence, the above only qualifies as paranoia of the type induced when some Americans hear the word “socialism”…never mind the red-button one, “the commies are coming!” ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2009, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honduras-whos-correct/501305/163 "2009-07-02T03:01:21Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > What does that even mean? The one thing that is “hurting” Honduras at the moment is the current unsustainable situation that’s made them a world pariah. True. OTOH, in the short run, economic sanctions against a country hurt its common people (not its Powers That Be – they never miss a meal). ---
**Author:** ![Olentzero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90ced4/32.png) [@Olentzero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Olentzero)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2009, 5:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honduras-whos-correct/501305/164 "2009-07-02T05:48:17Z")
> [@Frostillicus](#): > > My girlfriend… wholeheartedly supports his removal from office and claims that the vast majority of Hondurans want him out as well. FWIW. Which political party does she support, just out of curiosity? Also, how would she explain this teachers’ [strike](http://world.globaltimes.cn/americas/2009-06/441488.html) in support of Zelaya’s return? And, finally, does she have any real _proof_ of Zelaya and Chavez planning to rig the election? ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2009, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honduras-whos-correct/501305/165 "2009-07-02T17:07:18Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > I don’t think that they are correct when they ignore that the army and congress was against him. There is no way that was possible. The congress, and the Supreme Court, had said the referendum was illegal. The army had impounded the ballot boxes and the ballots to be used. Nevertheless, the referendum would have taken place. Thus, one must conclude that the opposition of the entrenched hierarchy was not enough to prevent any other activities regarding said referendum they would have opposed. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2009, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honduras-whos-correct/501305/166 "2009-07-02T17:42:58Z")
> [@DSYoungEsq](#): > > The congress, and the Supreme Court, had said the referendum was illegal. The army had impounded the ballot boxes and the ballots to be used. Nevertheless, the referendum would have taken place. Thus, one must conclude that the opposition of the entrenched hierarchy was not enough to prevent any other activities regarding said referendum they would have opposed. Way to miss the point. AFAIK many interruptions and lack of materials in place (thanks to actions of the army) meant that it was unlikely that survey was going to get enough votes. The demonization by the media and others has just turned propaganda into fact. BTW as it was mentioned before that anyone who is calling it a referendum shows that they are swallowing propaganda. [http://www.counterpunch.org/thorensen07012009.html](http://www.counterpunch.org/thorensen07012009.html) > [@](#): > > For example, most reports have stated that Manuel Zelaya was ousted from his country’s presidency after he tried to carry out a non-binding referendum to extend his term in office. But this is not completely accurate. Such presentation of “facts” merely contributes to legitimizing the propaganda, which is being employed by the coup-makers in Honduras to justify their actions. This interpretation is widespread in US-American liberal environments, especially after Secretary of State Hillary Clinton said that the coup is unacceptable, but that “all parties have a responsibility to address the underlying problems that led to [Sunday]’s events.” However, President Zelaya cannot be held responsible for this flagrant violation of the Honduran democratic institutions that he has tried to expand. This is what has actually happened: > > The Honduran Supreme Court of Justice, Attorney General, National Congress, Armed Forces and Supreme Electoral Tribunal have all falsely accused Manuel Zelaya of attempting a referendum to extend his term in office. > > According to Honduran law, this attempt would be illegal. Article 239 of the Honduran Constitution clearly states that persons, who have served as presidents, cannot be presidential candidates again. The same article also states that public officials who breach this article, as well as those that help them, directly or indirectly, will automatically lose their immunity and are subject to persecution by law. Additionally, articles 374 and 5 of the Honduran Constitution of 1982 (with amendments of 2005), clearly state that: “it is not possible to reform the Constitution regarding matters about the form of government, presidential periods, re-election and Honduran territory”, and that “reforms to article 374 of this Constitution are not subject to referendum.” > > Nevertheless, this is far from what President Zelaya attempted to do in Honduras the past Sunday and which the Honduran political/military elites disliked so much. President Zelaya intended to perform a non-binding public consultation, about the conformation of an elected National Constituent Assembly. To do this, he invoked article 5 of the Honduran “Civil Participation Act” of 2006. According to this act, all public functionaries can perform non-binding public consultations to inquire what the population thinks about policy measures. This act was approved by the National Congress and it was not contested by the Supreme Court of Justice, when it was published in the Official Paper of 2006. That is, until the president of the republic employed it in a manner that was not amicable to the interests of the members of these institutions. But once again this is mostly academic, even if they want to make that a crime, a coup is a bigger crime. They allowed the Army to change an order to remove a president into an order to make a coup. Instead of allowing Zelaya to confront his accusers. And then the congress used a fraudulent resignation document to select the puppet. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2009, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honduras-whos-correct/501305/167 "2009-07-02T17:56:03Z")
[_The Nation_ has it spot-on:](http://www.thenation.com/blogs/thebeat/448140/totalitarian_rightists_put_orwellian_spin_on_honduras_coup) > [@](#): > > In fact, the way that Limbaugh, Hannity and their echo chamber are talking, you’d think that Zelaya was the one assaulting liberty. > > In fact, the complaint about Zelaya from the people who have taken over the country was that the legitimately-elected president of Honduras wanted to hold an advisory referendum on whether to consider altering the constitution to allow elected executives to serve two terms. > > In order to block prevent the referendum vote, the coup kidnapped an elected president, spirited him out of the country and installed a new un-elected president. Then they suspended civil liberties. > > Outside of an Orwellian novel, or the mid-day slot on talk-radio stations, some basic principles still apply: > > Getting elected. Organizing referendums. Proposing constitutional amendments. These are the sorts of things happen in a country that is experiencing democracy. > > Kidnapping the president. Installing an unelected strongman. Suspending civil liberties. _These_ are the sort things that happen in a country that is experiencing a coup. ---
**Author:** ![Olentzero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90ced4/32.png) [@Olentzero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Olentzero)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2009, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honduras-whos-correct/501305/168 "2009-07-02T19:41:14Z")
> [@DSYoungEsq](#): > > The army had impounded the ballot boxes and the ballots to be used. Wrong. The army was given the election materials in order for them to distribute said materials on polling day. This distribution of election materials is part of the Honduran army’s function, and General Vasquez refused to distribute them based on the hastily cobbled-together law banning polls within 180 days of elections that Congress rammed through a week ago Tuesday. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2009, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honduras-whos-correct/501305/169 "2009-07-02T19:54:21Z")
> [@Olentzero](#): > > This distribution of election materials is part of the Honduran army’s function . . . W . . . T . . . . **F?!** :eek: ---
**Author:** ![Frodo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/frodo/32/302_2.png) [@Frodo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frodo)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2009, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honduras-whos-correct/501305/170 "2009-07-02T20:06:12Z")
> [@Olentzero](#): > > Wrong. The army was given the election materials in order for them to distribute said materials on polling day. This distribution of election materials is part of the Honduran army’s function, and General Vasquez refused to distribute them based on the hastily cobbled-together law banning polls within 180 days of elections that Congress rammed through a week ago Tuesday. To be fair if the law was already in the books he may have been right in refusing to distribute them. his not being to reason why and all that. ---
**Author:** ![Olentzero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90ced4/32.png) [@Olentzero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Olentzero)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2009, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honduras-whos-correct/501305/171 "2009-07-02T20:20:08Z")
The law wasn’t on the books prior to last Tuesday, when the army already had the materials at hand. ---
**Author:** ![Weird\_With\_Words](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/weird_with_words/32/385_2.png) [@Weird\_With\_Words](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weird_With_Words)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2009, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honduras-whos-correct/501305/172 "2009-07-02T20:25:22Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > W . . . T . . . . **F?!** :eek: Nothing necessarily wrong with that, if the Army is tasked to a democratic function and performs that function in good faith, no problemo. That the military in South and Central America has _historically_ been on the side of the oppressor does not mean it is _inherently_ so. ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2009, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honduras-whos-correct/501305/173 "2009-07-02T20:29:41Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > [_The Nation_ has it spot-on:](http://www.thenation.com/blogs/thebeat/448140/totalitarian_rightists_put_orwellian_spin_on_honduras_coup) They seem to have left out the bit where the Supreme Court ruled the referendum illegal (because it went against the constitutional ban on such referendums within 6 months of elections). They also left out the part where he fired the Chief of the Army when he refused to take a hand in the process after Zelaya had pledged to press ahead with the referendum anyway. Spot on? I think not. They simply left out stuff that it didn’t suit them to report. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2009, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honduras-whos-correct/501305/174 "2009-07-02T20:30:06Z")
> [@Weird\_With\_Words](#): > > Nothing necessarily wrong with that, if the Army is tasked to a democratic function and performs that function in good faith, no problemo. That the military in South and Central America has _historically_ been on the side of the oppressor does not mean it is _inherently_ so. It still seems kinda weird to have the military involved in public elections **in any way.** That’s from an American perspective, of course. Eisenhower was so devoted to the principle of the military’s subordination to civil government that, all the time he wore a uniform, he refused even to vote; he didn’t think it was proper for soldiers to vote. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2009, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honduras-whos-correct/501305/175 "2009-07-02T20:33:16Z")
By the same token, Ike as president never exchanged salutes with soldiers – because the POTUS is a civilian. ---
**Author:** ![Frodo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/frodo/32/302_2.png) [@Frodo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frodo)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2009, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honduras-whos-correct/501305/176 "2009-07-02T20:39:38Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > They seem to have left out the bit where the Supreme Court ruled the referendum illegal (because it went against the constitutional ban on such referendums within 6 months of elections). They also left out the part where he fired the Chief of the Army when he refused to take a hand in the process after Zelaya had pledged to press ahead with the referendum anyway. > > Spot on? I think not. They simply left out stuff that it didn’t suit them to report. Zelaya should have had impeachment process started on him IMHO, but once the opposition started a coup they lost all legitimacy. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2009, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honduras-whos-correct/501305/177 "2009-07-02T21:13:39Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > They seem to have left out the bit where the Supreme Court ruled the referendum illegal (because it went against the constitutional ban on such referendums within 6 months of elections). They also left out the part where he fired the Chief of the Army when he refused to take a hand in the process after Zelaya had pledged to press ahead with the referendum anyway. > > Spot on? I think not. They simply left out stuff that it didn’t suit them to report. What \*\*Frodo \*\*said. And I can say that the right wing media is ignoring the crimes committed to setup the coup: [QUOTE=GIGObuster] 1. I can not find in their constitution anything that would allow the courts to order the removal and expulsion of a head of state (So much for habeas corpus). If they were doing this in the proper way they should have captured him and put him on trial… But this creates a problem, it would then be clear that he is not resigning. So enter crime 2: 2. A false document was created to show to congress that Zelaya had resigned. With that the congress acted to select the puppet. A puppet that got selected based on a false document. [/QUOTE] No one has come with any satisfactory explanation, only contradictory excuses on why an order for arresting or removing the president suddenly turned into an extradition order and magically produced a resignation document. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2009, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honduras-whos-correct/501305/178 "2009-07-02T21:46:33Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > What \*\*Frodo \*\*said. > > And I can say that the right wing media is ignoring the crimes committed to setup the coup: > > No one has come with any satisfactory explanation, only contradictory excuses on why an order for arresting or removing the president suddenly turned into an extradition order and magically produced a resignation document. They haven’t and won’t because they can’t. The extradition of the sitting President – hell, any citizen – is clearly unconstitutional: \*\*[CAPITULO II DE LOS DERECHOS INDIVIDUALES]([http://www.honduras.net/honduras\_constitution2.html](http://www.honduras.net/honduras_constitution2.html))\*\* > [@](#): > > \*\*[ARTICULO 102.- Ningún hondureño podrá ser expatriado ni entregado por las autoridades a un Estado extranjero.](http://www.honduras.net/honduras_constitution2.html) \*\* **[No Honduran can be expatriated nor rendered by the authorities to a foreign State]** * * * I note that the right-wing is getting sillier/more hysterical by the minute. The WSJ has taken to calling this a “democratic coup” :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > [As military “coups” go](http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124640649700876791.html), the one this weekend in Honduras was strangely, well, democratic. ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2009, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honduras-whos-correct/501305/179 "2009-07-02T22:45:41Z")
> [@Olentzero](#): > > Wrong. The army was given the election materials in order for them to distribute said materials on polling day. This distribution of election materials is part of the Honduran army’s function, and General Vasquez refused to distribute them based on the hastily cobbled-together law banning polls within 180 days of elections that Congress rammed through a week ago Tuesday. In what way is your version of the events in conflict with what I said? They had custody of the materials, and they were not letting them go. Right? ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2009, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honduras-whos-correct/501305/180 "2009-07-02T22:49:09Z")
Well, who pays attention to the WSJ on such things any more? 😛 I still worry about this situation. If the people now running the government don’t back down, obviously there are remedies available short of military intervention. But military intervention in the area isn’t unknown… ☹ [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honduras-whos-correct/501305.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honduras-whos-correct/501305.md?page=10)