# Honest Mistakes **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [June 16, 2014, 6:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honest-mistakes/690886 "2014-06-16T06:07:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2014, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honest-mistakes/690886/21 "2014-06-16T18:03:02Z")
Ah, the land of the free and the home of the brave… AFAIK in Canada, for example, several provinces specifically prohibit dunning employees. Your choices are accept it or fire the employee - with separation pay. Ontario: > [@](#): > > Even with a signed authorization, an employer **cannot** make a deduction from wages if: > > the purpose is to cover a loss due to “faulty work.” For example, “faulty work” could be a mistake in a credit card transaction, work that is spoiled or rejected, or a situation where tools are broken or company vehicles damaged; > or > the employer has a cash shortage or has had property lost or stolen when an employee did not have sole access and total control over cash or property that is lost or stolen. A deduction can only be made when the employee was the only one to have access to the cash or property, and has provided a written authorization to the employer to make the deduction So if she counts the money and come to you with the shortage, you didn’t have total control. I am always amazed how backward the employment laws are down in the USA. If you want to fire someone for a shortage - unless you can prove it was theft, you are simply “terminating without cause”. Alleging “cause” when you can’t prove it is a quick road to a very expensive settlement. Termination without cause can cost two weeks or more of pay, depending on the length of service. The only valid cause would be theft or if the employee had a history of errors, had been coached and warned and given chances to do better. Very very few employers do drug tests up here, IIRC it is considered an invasion of privacy except in special circumstances. Plus, they can’t ask any medical questions except “any medical conditions that would prevent you from doing the work required?” and a medical by an MD to verify that. Can’t even ask about marital status, kids, religion, etc. Of course, we have maternity leave covered by Unemployment Insurance, guarantee of job on return, and many other benefits for employees… whereas it seems Kansas “Breaks are not required under state or federal law”, and Kansas even allows the employer steal unused vacation when you are fired. This: [http://kslegislature.org/li/b2013\_14/statute/044\_000\_0000\_chapter/044\_003\_0000\_article/044\_003\_0019\_section/044\_003\_0019\_k/](http://kslegislature.org/li/b2013_14/statute/044_000_0000_chapter/044_003_0000_article/044_003_0019_section/044_003_0019_k/) > [@](#): > > Article 3. - PAYMENT OF COMPENSATION Next > 44-319. Withholding of wages, limitations on; deductions from wages, when allowed. (a) Except as provided in subsections (b) and (c), no employer may withhold, deduct or divert any portion of an employee’s wages unless: (1) The employer is required or empowered to do so by state or federal law; (2) the deductions are for medical, surgical or hospital care or service, without financial benefit to the employer, and are openly, clearly and in due course recorded in the employer’s books; (3) the employer has a signed authorization by the employee for deductions for a lawful purpose accruing to the benefit of the employee; or (4) the deductions are for contributions attributable to automatic enrollment, as defined in K.S.A. 2013 Supp. 44-319a, and amendments thereto, in a retirement plan established by the employer described in sections 401(k), 403(b), 408, 408A or 457 of the internal revenue code. -there are further exceptions (employer’s tools, etc.) but I see nothing that allows recovery of damages. I assume the employer has the same options as Ontario - bite the bullet and accept the loss, or fire the person; but with the bonus of no separation pay, so the question is - how much vacation time does the employee have saved? they can get their $27 from that. ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2014, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honest-mistakes/690886/22 "2014-06-16T18:07:12Z")
> [@md2000](#): > > Ah, the land of the free and the home of the brave… > > … > I am always amazed how backward the employment laws are down in the USA. Did you read any of the posts that indicated that this probably isn’t legal in the US? ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2014, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honest-mistakes/690886/23 "2014-06-16T18:18:51Z")
Sorry, it’s the other Kansas City? Here’s the only thing I could find: > [@](#): > > Missouri Deductions From Pay: What you need to know > > Private employers in Missouri may make lawful deductions from the wages of employees so long as the deductions do not violate the state’s minimum wage requirements. > > Deductions that may reduce wages below the minimum wage. The following goods and services are considered to be for the private benefit of the employee and, therefore, their fair market value may be deducted by the employer as a credit toward the payment of the minimum wage to the employee (MO Code of Regs. Tit. 8 Sec. 30-4.050): > > • Meals, as long as the meals are voluntarily received by the employee for the private benefit of the employee > > • Lodging, as long as the lodging is voluntarily received by the employee for the private benefit of the employee > > • Tuition furnished by a college to its student employees > > • Merchandise furnished at company stores and commissaries > > • Fuel (including coal, kerosene, firewood, and lumber slabs) > > • Electricity, water, and gas furnished for the noncommercial personal use of the employee > > • Transportation furnished to employees between their homes and work, where the transportation is not necessary to the employment So it appears the “error” deduction is not on the list, so the other posters are correct - the deduction cannot bring you below minimum wage. At very least if they are forced to, make them take it off your wages not out of pocket, so there’s a paper trail. ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2014, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honest-mistakes/690886/24 "2014-06-16T18:29:14Z")
> [@IvoryTowerDenizen](#): > > Did you read any of the posts that indicated that this probably isn’t legal in the US? Yes, but firing with no notice seems to be a national sport. For professionals in Canada, terminations could cost several months’ salary. Job security of some degree is a major peace of mind. There’s also the significant lack of maternity leave, basic human dignity (drug tests), the provision in Kansas law that said accrued vacation does not need to be paid out, etc. But I digress. The sad fact seems to be the posts say it’s illegal by relying on a $27 deduction bringing the person below minimum wage for a week. I assume they want cash because the deduction would trigger that minimum wage limit. So the closest other proviso I find suggest that in some states “other” deductions require signed agreement by the employee; but that still leaves him with “sign or be fired” instead of “pay or be fired”. I agree the best answer is there are other minimum wage jobs out there if your boss is a \*\*\*. ---
**Author:** ![sbunny8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c77e96/32.png) [@sbunny8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sbunny8)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2014, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honest-mistakes/690886/25 "2014-06-16T19:50:02Z")
If (1) you are being paid more than minimum wage AND if (2) deducting the $27 from you weekly pay doesn’t put you below minimum wage AND if (3) your employer isn’t scared by the idea that the IRS might clamp down on them for treating employees like contractors and vice-versa, THEN yes it’s probably legal, but at the very least you could insist that the $27 be taken out of your gross wages on your next payday, which means you wouldn’t have to pay taxes on the $27. But you’re running the risk that you’ll make the boss mad at you and then some day you’ll be 3 minutes late for work and they pounce on the opportunity to fire you for tardiness. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2014, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honest-mistakes/690886/27 "2014-06-16T20:55:26Z")
reported. ---
**Author:** ![Kimballkid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/b5a626/32.png) [@Kimballkid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimballkid)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2014, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honest-mistakes/690886/28 "2014-06-16T20:56:48Z")
Holy fuck!! What the hell was that all about? That was a weird turn. Dumbass spammers. ---
**Author:** ![Kimballkid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/b5a626/32.png) [@Kimballkid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimballkid)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2014, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honest-mistakes/690886/29 "2014-06-16T21:00:31Z")
> [@sandra\_nz](#): > > Does your contract mention cash handling/till balancing at all? It’s a part-time job at a convenience store, the odds are very slim that there is a contract. Also, many people are assuming it’s a corporate store. What if it’s just a mom and pop operation? If that is the case, there isn’t going to be a ‘corporate’ to go to and odds are good there isn’t an HR department or employee handbook or any of that formal stuff. I wish the OP would come back and clarify so the answers to his OP could be based more on reality. ---
**Author:** ![jackdavinci](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackdavinci/32/3259_2.png) [@jackdavinci](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jackdavinci)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2014, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honest-mistakes/690886/30 "2014-06-17T04:32:42Z")
Every place I have ever worked at where I was a cashier, I was responsible for counting the drawer myself when starting and ending my shift and checking it against the shift receipt tally. I would know right away when closing out the drawer whether everything added up properly. Seems really shady to have more than one person using a drawer and then blame one specific person for an error. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2014, 11:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honest-mistakes/690886/31 "2014-06-17T11:06:17Z")
> [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](#): > > And I don’t know about the legality, but the policy of requiring the person in charge of the cash register to make up any shortages is a sensible one as a disincentive to theft. Nonsense. If someone is stealing, the sensible policy is to fire them, and, if possible, prosecute them. If someone is merely a bad cashier, you just fire them. ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Call_Me_Shirley)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2014, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honest-mistakes/690886/32 "2014-06-17T13:01:46Z")
If the drawer is over because of an “honest mistake,” will they let you keep the money? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honest-mistakes/690886.md?page=1)