# Hong Kong is NOT a libertarian success story **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 12, 2009, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hong-kong-is-not-a-libertarian-success-story/480927 "2009-01-12T16:34:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2009, 9:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hong-kong-is-not-a-libertarian-success-story/480927/41 "2009-01-15T09:26:06Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > I gave cites. You seem unwilling to read them. There is not currently a lot of political persecution in HK, nor did I claim there was. What there is the the looming threat of political persecution whenever Peking wants to institute it. > > Here are the cites again. Please read and refute: You have not provided any cites which support there is political persecution today in HK. None. Zero. First you claimed they lived in fear of the “Red army walking in”. Then you claimed the red army occupied HK like the Nazis Denmark :rolleyes: And now you cannot provide a single cite in support of that. Not a single party or group objecting to the presence of the PLA in HK. Not a single group which says they would rather be independent from China. Not a single person imprisoned. Nothing. You got nothing. Absolutely fucking nothing. That’s what you got. And you try to come up with vague laws that whatever they may mean, which is very disputable, as a fact we know that in HK they do not mean what you want them to mean. You can always find a law in the books of any country and try to make it paramount and leave everything else aside. So the citizens of HK need to get a passport to leave HK and that is a terrible thing? OK, now show me all those people who have been denied passports to leave HK. Where are they? Where are all those people who “live in fear of the Chinese army walking in” and who are denied passports to leave? You cannot find a single, solitary, instance in the last five years? Come on! try harder! I am sure you can find at least one. The fact is that HK is, politically speaking, among the freest places in Asia. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2009, 9:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hong-kong-is-not-a-libertarian-success-story/480927/42 "2009-01-15T09:40:03Z")
> [@MEBuckner](#): > > **Moderator’s Note:** Please remember that accusing another poster of lying is [not permitted in this forum](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=448632). I never did and never would. Making up shit is very different from lying. The way I understand it, “lying” is making an affirmation knowing it is false. “Making up shit” is uttering a statement with no proof, support or validation. Very different things. My accusation is not that the esteemed gentleman is posting things which he knows to be false. Not at all as for that he would need to know the truth in the first place. My affirmation is that the esteemed gentleman is posting regarding matters about which he knows nothing and he believes things to be true without any reason, just because it fits his view of “bad, communist China”. ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2009, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hong-kong-is-not-a-libertarian-success-story/480927/43 "2009-01-15T13:30:45Z")
> [@runcible\_spoon](#): > > Having spent about six months there in college, I’d disagree with that. At least, partially. A LOT of people ended up in Hong Kong after fleeing Shanghai and elsewhere during the civil war. It’s maybe not as stark an ideological difference, but even in the twenty-somethings I was hanging out with, I encountered a definite sense of being different-from and, really, better-than, mainlanders. When I was there, there was also some dissatisfaction with some Beijing-appointed government officials. I agree with this. In fact it is understated. HKers will in general have a poor regard of mainlanders. Particularly now that there are a lot of tourists from the mainland. They stick out and don’t fit in. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2009, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hong-kong-is-not-a-libertarian-success-story/480927/44 "2009-01-15T16:48:42Z")
> [@sailor](#): > > You have not provided any cites which support there is political persecution today in HK. None. Zero. > > First you claimed they lived in fear of the “Red army walking in”. Then you claimed the red army occupied HK like the Nazis Denmark . Actually, I have provided them, but _"There is not currently a lot of political persecution in HK, nor did I claim there was_" What there is is fear, and a looming dread. Not of the Red Army being there, but of the red army taking over, and the reimplementation of earlier Communist polcies _"The implementation of Maoist thought in China may have been responsible for over 70 million excessive deaths during peacetime,[2][3] with the Cultural Revolution, Anti-Rightist Campaign of 1957-58,[4] and the Great Leap Forward. Because of Mao’s land reforms during the Great Leap Forward, which resulted in famines, thirty million perished between 1958 and 1961. By the end of 1961 the birth rate was nearly cut in half because of malnutrition. [5] Active campaigns, including party purges and “reeducation” resulted in imprisonment and/or the execution of those deemed contrary to the implementation of Maoist ideals_" > **[History of the People's Republic of China](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_People%27s_Republic_of_China)** > > On 1 October 1949 CCP chairman Mao Zedong proclaimed the People's Republic of China (PRC) from atop Tiananmen, after a near complete victory (1949) by the Chinese Communist Party (CCP) in the Chinese Civil War. The PRC is the most recent political entity to govern mainland China, preceded by the Republic of China (ROC; 1912–1949) and thousands of years of monarchical dynasties. The paramount leaders have been Mao Zedong (1949–1976); Hua Guofeng (1976–1978); Deng Xiaoping (1978–1989); Jiang Ze... 70 million dead, and there is nothing to stop it from happening again. It’s the same government. This is exactly why a million plus HK people left before the Reds arrived. Right now, thigs are not so bad. But there’s a “sickle of Damocles” hanging over the “free people” of HK, and everyone knows it. Those freedoms could end at any time, on a whim. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2009, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hong-kong-is-not-a-libertarian-success-story/480927/45 "2009-01-15T17:25:13Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > 70 million dead, and there is nothing to stop it from happening again. It’s the same government. Well, it is and it isn’t. Kind of hard to imagine the current PRC rulers putting through anything like the Cultural Revolution ever again. They’re not really very Communist any more. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2009, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hong-kong-is-not-a-libertarian-success-story/480927/46 "2009-01-15T17:59:18Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Well, it is and it isn’t. Kind of hard to imagine the current PRC rulers putting through anything like the Cultural Revolution ever again. They’re not really very Communist any more. _At this point in time_. Don’t you think they’ll have new leaders someday? There are “reform hardliners” active in Russia that want a return to the days of the USSR, I have little doubt there are similar dudes in China. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2009, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hong-kong-is-not-a-libertarian-success-story/480927/47 "2009-01-15T19:31:20Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Actually, I have provided them, No, you haven’t. Not one single name or instance of a person being persecuted or being denied a passport. Not a single one. Nothing. Nada. > [@](#): > > _"There is not currently a lot of political persecution in HK, nor did I claim there was_" So living in fear of the “Red army” “walking in” and the “Red Army” in HK being like the Nazis in Denmark is the same as “not a lot of political persecution”. I see. > [@](#): > > What there is is fear, and a looming dread. Not of the Red Army being there, but of the red army taking over, and the reimplementation of earlier Communist polcies > … > But there’s a “sickle of Damocles” hanging over the “free people” of HK, and everyone knows it. Those freedoms could end at any time, on a whim. Again, you are making shit up. Where is the evidence of that? There is none and you have none. Where are the people running away in fear? > [@](#): > > 70 million dead, and there is nothing to stop it from happening again. It’s the same government. More recently the USA has bombed the shit out of several countries just for shits and giggles and there is nothing to stop it from happening again. So? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2009, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hong-kong-is-not-a-libertarian-success-story/480927/48 "2009-01-15T20:07:53Z")
Sailor, in a society where public demonstrations against the government are routinely and severly punished, it’s hard to draw any conclusions from the lack of public demonstrations. Are they not occurring because the people support the government or because the people fear the government? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2009, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hong-kong-is-not-a-libertarian-success-story/480927/49 "2009-01-15T21:10:38Z")
I give up. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2009, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hong-kong-is-not-a-libertarian-success-story/480927/50 "2009-01-15T21:37:12Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > _At this point in time_. Don’t you think they’ll have new leaders someday? There are “reform hardliners” active in Russia that want a return to the days of the USSR, I have little doubt there are similar dudes in China. That is **possible,** but only in the sense it is possible Communists will take over America. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2009, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hong-kong-is-not-a-libertarian-success-story/480927/51 "2009-01-15T21:47:22Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > I give up. :rolleyes: I thought you had no proof. I see I was right. > [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Sailor, in a society where public demonstrations against the government are routinely and severly punished, You have proof of that? I’d like to see it. Otherwise I do not believe it. I say demonstrations in HK are not routinely and “severly” punished. Not more than in America, anyway. Again. Cites. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2009, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hong-kong-is-not-a-libertarian-success-story/480927/52 "2009-01-15T22:56:09Z")
You’re questioning the fact that China imprisons and executes people for political crimes and uses military forces to break up anti-government demonstrations? Seriously? I can find cites if that’s what you’re saying but I want to make sure I’m not just misunderstanding your position here. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2009, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hong-kong-is-not-a-libertarian-success-story/480927/53 "2009-01-16T00:05:16Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > You’re questioning the fact that China imprisons and executes people for political crimes and uses military forces to break up anti-government demonstrations? Seriously? I can find cites if that’s what you’re saying but I want to make sure I’m not just misunderstanding your position here. You may have noticed we are talking about HK, not the rest of China. Yes, I believe there is good freedom of expression in HK as I have not heard of people being arrested for demonstrating against the government. If you maintain that people in HK are “imprisoned and executed” for political crimes and that they use “military force” to break up demonstrations then I would like to see cites. Like, when was the last time military force was used to break up a demonstration in HK? Name a few people who have been imprisoned and/or executed in HK for political reasons. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2009, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hong-kong-is-not-a-libertarian-success-story/480927/54 "2009-01-16T02:47:59Z")
It seems to me there is a lot of ignorance about Hong Kong. Let’s try this: > [@](#): > > [One country, two systems](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_country,_two_systems) > > Hong Kong Basic Law Article 5 reads: > “ The socialist system and policies shall not be practised in the HKSAR, and the previous capitalist system and way of life shall remain unchanged for 50 years."” > > The establishment of these regions, called special administrative regions (SARs), is authorized by Article 31 of the Constitution of the People’s Republic of China, which states that the State may establish SARs when necessary, and that the systems to be instituted in them shall be prescribed by law enacted by the National People’s Congress in light of the specific conditions. > > The SARs of Hong Kong and Macau were formally established on 1 July 1997 and 20 December 1999 respectively, immediately after the People’s Republic of China (PRC) assumed the sovereignty over the respective regions. > > Framework > The two SARs of Hong Kong and Macau are responsible for their domestic affairs, including, but not limited to, the judiciary and courts of last resort, immigration and customs, public finance, currencies and extradition. Diplomatic relations and national defense of the two SARs are, however, the responsibility of the Central People’s Government in Beijing. > > Hong Kong continues using English common law. Macau continues using the Portuguese civil law system. > > Implementation > In Hong Kong, the system has been implemented through the Basic Law of Hong Kong, which serves as the “mini-constitution” of the region, and consistent with the Sino-British Joint Declaration. Similar arrangements are in place with Macau. Under the respective basic laws, the SARs have a high degree of autonomy and enjoy executive, legislative and independent judicial power, including that of final adjudication. They formulate their own monetary and financial policies, maintain their own currencies, formulate their own policies on education, culture, sports, social welfare system, etc. within the framework of the basic laws. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2009, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hong-kong-is-not-a-libertarian-success-story/480927/55 "2009-01-16T03:23:38Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > Hong Kong is not perfect. It’s not a worker’s paradise. But you have to compare it to other locations in Asia where markets weren’t allowed to flourish, and which instead relied on government planning and heavy regulation of trade and commerce. Is there any doubt that Hong Kong was vastly more successful than any other country in the region, and that the standard of living was much better in Hong Kong than anywhere else in the region? There are other factors. HK was British. Culturally and geographically it stands with a foot in both China and the West. It is (and more to the point was) consequently one of the few effective doors between one of the largest nations on earth and the rest of the world. You don’t have to skim off much from the stuff passing through such a door to be successful. Being what and where it is, is a licence to print money. Unless it had had a government that was so stupid that choked the door completely, it couldn’t have been unsuccessful if it tried. ---
**Author:** ![Shalmanese](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/45deac/32.png) [@Shalmanese](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shalmanese)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2009, 6:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hong-kong-is-not-a-libertarian-success-story/480927/56 "2009-01-16T06:02:36Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > 70 million dead, and there is nothing to stop it from happening again. It’s the same government. > > This is exactly why a million plus HK people left before the Reds arrived. Right now, thigs are not so bad. But there’s a “sickle of Damocles” hanging over the “free people” of HK, and everyone knows it. Those freedoms could end at any time, on a whim. I lived in Hong Kong for half a year and what you’re saying is utter horse shit. There are people like that in Hong Kong, they’re treated like Americans treat those civilian militia people who have their own private weapons caches. There’s a lot of grumbling about the political process but nobody seriously expects the reds to march across the border and impose martial law. Also, as far as I’m aware, being a SAR, there’s no restrictions on emigration from anyone holding a Hong Kong passport. Mainland Chinese who live in Hong Kong face different restrictions. Please stop making baseless assertions about the political process in Hong Kong until you can actually come up with cites that aren’t wiki articles. ---
**Author:** ![Shalmanese](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/45deac/32.png) [@Shalmanese](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shalmanese)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2009, 6:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hong-kong-is-not-a-libertarian-success-story/480927/57 "2009-01-16T06:05:42Z")
Oh, and public protest is common and not cracked down upon by the authorities. Freedom of press is enshrined in the constitution and the South China Morning Post regularly posts articles critical of both the Hong Kong and Beijing Government. ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2009, 11:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hong-kong-is-not-a-libertarian-success-story/480927/58 "2009-01-16T11:52:15Z")
[Sometime SDMB Member **Hemlock**](http://www.geocities.com/hkhemlock/rat/diary-17jan09.html) discusses HK governance: Democracy via ‘Functional Constituencies’ > [@](#): > > Functional constituencies … need to enhance public recognition by understanding public opinion and making appropriate adjustments. For example, they might consider adding representatives from new industries, as well as newly established commercial associations (such as the cultural sector) or even non-professional communities, to reflect the philosophy of “balanced participation” more fully. > > In this way, such “charmed circles” may become a mouthpiece for the people and meet the demands for innovation in the political system. Functional constituencies and their contribution to the political history of Hong Kong may, then, finally be commemorated. > > This is a new approach to keeping FCs – rearranging them a bit via a conjuring trick so they miraculously appear to be putting the public interest first. > > The traditional argument in favour of FCs is that people who own leading corporations should be able to veto popularly elected legislators’ decisions because they are richer, and therefore smarter and more capable than the masses of understanding Hong Kong’s true interests. More modest members of these limited franchises like to claim that the Legislative Council benefits enormously from the presence of members with in-depth knowledge of complicated and technical aspects of commerce. > > Opponents of the system simply decry on principle its undemocratic nature, in which a small and select group of what Christine Loh terms ‘non-humans’ – some controlled in batches by individual tycoons – get the vote. The pro-democrats tend to be too preoccupied or diplomatic to stress bluntly that the system is essentially institutionalized corruption. Where the vested interests of these narrow business groups coincide with those of the bureaucracy, Government policymaking ignores the public interest, which is why we spend billions on unnecessary infrastructure projects while public hospital waiting lists grow ever longer. > > The truth, known only to a small handful of us illuminati south of the Mainland border, is that the FCs today have just one function – and that is to give the Central People’s Government in Beijing a guaranteed, dependable voting bloc in the Big Lychee’s mini-parliament that can be called into action if counter-revolutionary and/or foreign forces attempt to use legislative means in Hong Kong to undermine the Motherland. > > This bloc will not be replaced by democratically elected representatives that Beijing cannot control or trust. But nor does it absolutely have to comprise nominees of entitlement-hungry, rent-seeking cartels. From a United Front point of view, it doesn’t hurt to keep tycoons in line by letting them plunder. But if the semi-feudal privilege and collusion became more trouble than they are worth – if the pro-democrats got off their backsides and roused public opinion – Beijing would probably be happy to fill the seats with less personally avaricious guardians of the national interest. For example, Legco could instead have ranks of Mainland-based, moon-faced cadres in green uniforms, dozing through all the parochial stuff and only voting when evil, unpatriotic enemies of the Chinese people try to push through some sneaky motion that contradicts the one-party dictatorship of the proletariat in some way or other. It would be a big improvement. > … ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2009, 12:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hong-kong-is-not-a-libertarian-success-story/480927/59 "2009-01-16T12:27:09Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > And the [level of union penetration in Hong Kong](http://yglesias.thinkprogress.org/archives/2009/01/economic_freedom_universal_health_care_and_labor_unions.php) is twice what it is in America. Don’t libertarians regard unions as coercive? Not generally, no (unless one uses the leftist definition whereby “you have to do X to get and keep this job” counts as “coercive”). Obviously, some specific cases involving some specific corrupt unions are exceptions. ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2009, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hong-kong-is-not-a-libertarian-success-story/480927/60 "2009-01-16T13:08:38Z")
There’s a lot of confusion in this thread. i just happen to be flying from HK to Shanghai right now. i lived in HK in the late 1980’s and 1994-98 and was there during the handover of sovereignity. Some posters in this thread are taking a mix of mainland history and practices over the past 50 years and claiming this is the HK of today. This is a patently false connection (and the view of Red China is sadly out of date as well.) I honestly don’t know where to start addressing the false ‘assertations.’ The Red Army have been in HK with a low profile since 1997. HK people have a special SAR passport and can freely emmigrate. Demonstrations are rare but allowed. the Falonggong pubicly demonstrate (i’ve witnessed tnis). Ad nauseum. need to have a credible cite for HK (and not mainland China) if you want a debate. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hong-kong-is-not-a-libertarian-success-story/480927.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hong-kong-is-not-a-libertarian-success-story/480927.md?page=4)