# Honolulu to Nairobi (and back) in 1961 **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [April 28, 2011, 9:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honolulu-to-nairobi-and-back-in-1961/580008 "2011-04-28T09:17:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2011, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honolulu-to-nairobi-and-back-in-1961/580008/21 "2011-04-28T15:36:33Z")
> [@Susanann](#): > > That is total speculation on your part. In fact, history shows that you are wrong. In fact, Stanley Ann Dunham, Barak Obama, and obama junior DID!!! travel quite a bit from Washington,to Los Angeles, to Honolulu, to Kenya, to Indonesia, etc. with no record of cost ever being a factor. Neither did the cost of anytyhing seem to impact any of the family going to any school, college, private school, etc, along with room and board in Hawaii, Washington, etc etc , and this was in an era where they had no credit cards and no student loans. > > There is no record of Stanely Ann Dunham being on food stamps while she lived in Washington, Hawaii, and/or Indonesia in the 1960’s. (besides, it is not mutually exclusive, being on food stamps does not mean that you dont or cant fly, there are currently over 40 million Americans on food stamps today and millions of those people fly ) There’s no record of her going to Kenya either, but that doesn’t seem to stop some people. Found an interesting post on the ever-reliable [sic] [Yahoo Answers](http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20100310205348AAOHrqv). Apply caveats as desired. > [@](#): > > I found an article with airfare in 1960 from London to Nairobi (4K miles), a new super low fare of £165. The fare from London to Hong Kong (8K miles) was £311. Together, they are the distance between Kenya and Hawaii (11K miles), or £476. Airfares seemed to be based on miles back then. > > £1 in 1960 is £15.41 today. That’s £7335, or $11,025 in today’s dollars. Each person. > > Per capita income in 1959 in Hawaii was $1,863. In 2010 dollars, $13,872. Each person. > > Ain’t no way a pregnant teenager is going to visit her in-laws, who are angry that their boy married a white girl when he already had a wife and baby at home, when the airfare alone would cost almost a year’s income. Ain’t no way the foreign student would be going home for summer break, either. [This site](http://www.mccrow.org.uk/eastafrica/NairobiAirport/Nairobi%20Airports.htm)says BOAC did fly London to Nairobi “via Rome, Khartoum and Entebbe”. [This blog](http://newyorkleftist.blogspot.com/2010/03/obama-born-in-kenya-no.html)points out that > [@](#): > > The Boeing 707 did not go into service until late 1959. When my half-sister flew to/from New York in 1964, half of the time it was on a prop plane. The 707 had not yet replaced all the fleets. So the trip, on a prop plane, would have looked like this: > > Honolulu - San Francisco, change planes > San Francisco - Chicago, change planes > Chicago - New York, change planes > New York - London, change planes > London - Nairobi > > That’s five days, plus layovers. The New York - London - Nairobi legs would have been on a BOAC Viscount 810, a prop plane with a top speed of 200 MPH. One of the comments also points out > [@](#): > > Misha, another fact that gravitates against this already incredible story is that air serve between London and Nairobi was “fortnightly” – every 14 days. This means that unless Ann and Barack Sr. had to plan the timing of their trip just right to arrive in London before the BOAC flight left, else they would have spent precious dollars on a hotel room while awaiting the next flight out. Even Ilsa and Victor had more travel options … Doesn’t sounds very cheap, quick or comfortable. And that’s not getting into the various assertions about vaccinations and passports and so forth. ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2011, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honolulu-to-nairobi-and-back-in-1961/580008/22 "2011-04-28T15:44:21Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > And that’s not getting into the various assertions about vaccinations and passports and so forth. Barack Obama, Senior, would of course have had a passport (as a British subject), since he’d have needed one to travel to the U.S. Even if Ann Obama had not at that time travelled outside the U.S., she’d have had no trouble getting a passport. So that would not have been a problem. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2011, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honolulu-to-nairobi-and-back-in-1961/580008/23 "2011-04-28T15:46:02Z")
> [@Giles](#): > > Barack Obama, Senior, would of course have had a passport (as a British subject), since he’d have needed one to travel to the U.S. Even if Ann Obama had not at that time travelled outside the U.S., she’d have had no trouble getting a passport. So that would not have been a problem. The passport issue is about coming back with a baby. ---
**Author:** ![Susanann](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7ab992/32.png) [@Susanann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Susanann)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2011, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honolulu-to-nairobi-and-back-in-1961/580008/24 "2011-04-28T15:48:22Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > 1. The Dunhams seem to have financially supported their daughter later in her life than this, which has an unpredictable effect on Ann and Barack’s ability to afford the trip. > > 2. The main argument against the trip to Kenya, of course, is that there’s no evidence for it, and that even without the stopovers, it’s that the idea of them making a round trip at that time is ludicrous. NO, and no. 1. There is no evidence that “money”, or lack of, ever stopped Stanley Ann Dunham from doing anything, or from traveling back and forth, or from going to school anywhere. ( Ditto for barak, I never heard of barak needing money for Columbia, Harvard, private Catholic school, etc. nor of barak ever needing money or needing a job). 2. Not ludicrous at all. I remember the 1960’s very well, and at the time, I was intrigued by Africa, and I wanted to go to Africa. On the other hand, I had absolutely no desire to go to Indonesia(which also is a place where Stanley Ann Dunhan went to. IF Stanley Ann Dunham would go to Indonesia, Java, and Pakistan in the 1960’s, hellholes that they were at that time, then there would be no other place else in the world that could be called “ludicrous”, and in fact, Africa back then, was considered to be an exotic desirable place to travel to. In 1961 , it was not “ludicrous” at all for a normal American to want to visit Africa, it was a common dream. Africa at that time had beautiful things, natural sights, animals, etc. to see and to experience. ---
**Author:** ![Susanann](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7ab992/32.png) [@Susanann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Susanann)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2011, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honolulu-to-nairobi-and-back-in-1961/580008/25 "2011-04-28T15:51:43Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > The passport issue is about coming back with a baby. Not an uncommon thing at all. It has been happening at least since the 1600’s. Women have babies, even women that travel. ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2011, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honolulu-to-nairobi-and-back-in-1961/580008/26 "2011-04-28T15:55:50Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > The passport issue is about coming back with a baby. That would not have been a problem. Babies did not need passports then. Ann Obama would just have needed to go to the US Embassy in Nairobi, register young Barack’s birth there, and have his name added to her passport. (That’s all hypothetically speaking, of course – there’s no evidence that she did that.) > [@Susanann](#): > > … Not ludicrous at all. I remember the 1960’s very well, and at the time, I was intrigued by Africa, and I wanted to go to Africa. On the other hand, I had absolutely no desire to go to Indonesia(which also is a place where Stanley Ann Dunhan went to. IF Stanley Ann Dunham would go to Indonesia, Java, and Pakistan in the 1960’s, hellholes that they were at that time, then there would be no other place else in the world that could be called “ludicrous”, and in fact, Africa back then, was considered to be an exotic desirable place to travel to. In 1961 , it was not “ludicrous” at all for a normal American to want to visit Africa, it was a common dream. Africa at that time had beautiful things, natural sights, animals, etc. to see and to experience. What’s ludicrous is that Ann Obama would have wanted to travel to the other side of the world late in her pregnancy. She no doubt would have been very interested in seeing Kenya, but in 1961 around the birth of her child would not have been a good time. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2011, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honolulu-to-nairobi-and-back-in-1961/580008/27 "2011-04-28T15:57:10Z")
> [@Susanann](#): > > 1. There is no evidence that “money”, or lack of, ever stopped Stanley Ann Dunham from doing anything I have no idea what evidence you would expect to see from this. (I also don’t know why money is in quotes in this sentence.) Like I said, her parents supported her later in her life. The New York Times did a story about her recently and one source indicated they probably helped her financially at least into her 30s, when she was in Indonesia. So the fact that she could not have afforded this trip on her own does not mean it was impossible on those terms. > [@](#): > > Ditto for barak, I never heard of barak needing money for Columbia, Harvard, private Catholic school, etc. nor of barak ever needing money or needing a job). Again, I have no idea how you expect to have heard about him needing money. It’s not like he was filing financial disclosure forms as a teenager. His grandparents obviously paid for his schooling in Hawaii. He wrote that he did have some student loans, and it’s very likely he received some financial aid at college, but neither of us knows how much. > [@](#): > > 1. Not ludicrous at all. I remember the 1960’s very well, and at the time, I was intrigued by Africa, and I wanted to go to Africa. Were you eight months pregnant at the time? That’s what makes the trip ludicrous. There’s no evidence Ann Dunham went to Kenya at any time, but the idea that she and her husband made a hasty trip there late in her pregnancy is absurd. I shouldn’t go down this rabbit hole, but is there a reason you insist on referring to the president’s mother by her full name? Stanley was her legal first name, but for very understandable reasons she went by Ann. And the president’s name is Barack, not barak. ---
**Author:** ![Susanann](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7ab992/32.png) [@Susanann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Susanann)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2011, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honolulu-to-nairobi-and-back-in-1961/580008/28 "2011-04-28T15:59:17Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > ]This blog points out thatThis blog points out that > Quote: > … the trip, on a prop plane, would have looked like this: > Honolulu - San Francisco, change planes > San Francisco - Chicago, change planes > Chicago - New York, change planes > New York - London, change planes > London - Nairobi > > That’s five days, plus layovers. Geeez! Why the heck would anyone want to stop in Chicago? NO. In 1961, people traveling from Hawaii to London, would have taken a Boeing 707 jet, not a prop, and there was absolutely no need at all to stop in Chicago - in 1961 there was daily nonstop flights from LA to NY. It was less than 2 days total (not 5), with definite intermediate stops only in LA, NY, and London. ---
**Author:** ![Susanann](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7ab992/32.png) [@Susanann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Susanann)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2011, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honolulu-to-nairobi-and-back-in-1961/580008/29 "2011-04-28T16:01:58Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Were you eight months pregnant at the time? That’s what makes the trip ludicrous. It is Ludicrous for pregnant women to travel? How quaint! If it is so ludicrous, maybe you should proposing outlawing pregnant women from traveling? ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2011, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honolulu-to-nairobi-and-back-in-1961/580008/30 "2011-04-28T16:06:00Z")
> [@Susanann](#): > > It is Ludicrous for pregnant women to travel? > > How quaint! > > If it is so ludicrous, maybe you should proposing outlawing pregnant women from traveling? Most airlines and many countries do, you know. Especially in the last month of pregnancy. And it’s especially ludicrous to travel from the relatively modern US to considerably less modern Kenya to give birth. ---
**Author:** ![joebuck20](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/74df32/32.png) [@joebuck20](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joebuck20)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2011, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honolulu-to-nairobi-and-back-in-1961/580008/31 "2011-04-28T16:06:20Z")
> [@Susanann](#): > > NO. In 1961, people traveling from Hawaii to London, would have taken a Boeing 707 jet, not a prop, and there was absolutely no need at all to stop in Chicago - in 1961 there was daily nonstop flights from LA to NY. Cite? (I know Susanann rarely if ever provides cites, but what the hell, I’ll ask for kicks) ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2011, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honolulu-to-nairobi-and-back-in-1961/580008/32 "2011-04-28T16:08:13Z")
> [@joebuck20](#): > > Cite? > > (I know Susanann rarely if ever provides cites, but what the hell, I’ll ask for kicks) It’s one faceless Internet person’s word over another. But **Susanann** used caps to write “NO”, which strengthens her argument. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2011, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honolulu-to-nairobi-and-back-in-1961/580008/33 "2011-04-28T16:11:06Z")
> [@Susanann](#): > > It is Ludicrous for pregnant women to travel? > > How quaint! > > If it is so ludicrous, maybe you should proposing outlawing pregnant women from traveling? This is a poor excuse for a strawman. We are talking about a trip of more than 10,000 miles, and this stuff is usually discussed in the context of a trip when she was about 8 months pregnant with a return trip shortly thereafter (although the OP did not specify that that had to be the case here). In that context, the idea of the trip is ludicrous. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2011, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honolulu-to-nairobi-and-back-in-1961/580008/34 "2011-04-28T16:12:07Z")
> [@Susanann](#): > > It is Ludicrous for pregnant women to travel? > > How quaint! > > If it is so ludicrous, maybe you should proposing outlawing pregnant women from traveling? [Moderator Instructions] **Susanann** , let’s stop distorting what other posters say. **Marley23’s** point is not that she was pregnant, but that it was very late in her pregnancy. It would in fact have been extremely unusual for any woman, let alone an 18-year-old, to travel so far at such a late stage in her pregnacy, especially to someplace in the third world. Colibri General Questions Moderator ---
**Author:** ![John\_Bredin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/96bed5/32.png) [@John\_Bredin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Bredin)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2011, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honolulu-to-nairobi-and-back-in-1961/580008/35 "2011-04-28T16:16:42Z")
> [@Susanann](#): > > There is no record of Stanely Ann Dunham being on food stamps while she lived in Washington, Hawaii, and/or Indonesia in the 1960’s. (besides, it is not mutually exclusive, being on food stamps does not mean that you dont or cant fly, there are currently over 40 million Americans on food stamps today and millions of those people fly ) Except as others have pointed out, flying was **much** more expensive back then than it is now. You’re correct that flying was more “civilized” back then; while I have no personal experience, as I wasn’t born until '72 and didn’t fly until the mid '80s, I’ve heard plenty of other people say the same thing. However, the reason for all the amenities of flying in the early '60s and the indignities you listed about modern air travel (except for the TSA) is that post-deregulation, flying is cheap and within the reach of lower-middle-class and even working-class Americans. Flying is like bus travel now because its as affordable and wide-spread as bus travel. It simply wasn’t so in 1961. In short, not only would people on welfare or food stamps back then almost **never** flown, but even a factory worker or office clerk would have counted his air trips on one hand. ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2011, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honolulu-to-nairobi-and-back-in-1961/580008/36 "2011-04-28T16:22:05Z")
> [@John\_Bredin](#): > > In short, not only would people on welfare or food stamps back then almost **never** flown, but even a factory worker or office clerk would have counted his air trips on one hand. My father was a university lecturer and my mother was a school teacher: in 1961, they could have counted their air trips on zero hands. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Excellent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@Mr.Excellent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Excellent)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2011, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honolulu-to-nairobi-and-back-in-1961/580008/37 "2011-04-28T16:29:58Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > “Flew in from Miami Beach, BOAC, didn’t get to bed last night…” All the way the paper bag was on my knee - man, I had a dreadful flight! (Love this song - one of the very few I’ll sing at karaoke). ---
**Author:** ![Susanann](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7ab992/32.png) [@Susanann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Susanann)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2011, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honolulu-to-nairobi-and-back-in-1961/580008/38 "2011-04-28T16:36:42Z")
> [@John\_Bredin](#): > > In short, not only would people on welfare or food stamps back then almost **never** flown, but even a factory worker or office clerk would have counted his air trips on one hand. The fact is, that Stanley Ann Dunham DID!!! fly, and she flew often, back and forth to Hawaii, to Washington, to Indonesia, etc. Anyone who says Stanley Ann Dunham could not have flown in the 1960’s, doesnt know what they are talking about. ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2011, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honolulu-to-nairobi-and-back-in-1961/580008/39 "2011-04-28T16:37:38Z")
> [@Susanann](#): > > That is total speculation on your part. In fact, history shows that you are wrong. In fact, Stanley Ann Dunham, Barak Obama, and obama junior DID!!! travel quite a bit from Washington,to Los Angeles, to Honolulu, to Kenya, to Indonesia, etc. with no record of cost ever being a factor. Neither did the cost of anytyhing seem to impact any of the family going to any school, college, private school, etc, along with room and board in Hawaii, Washington, etc etc , and this was in an era where they had no credit cards and no student loans. > > There is no record of Stanely Ann Dunham being on food stamps while she lived in Washington, Hawaii, and/or Indonesia in the 1960’s. (besides, it is not mutually exclusive, being on food stamps does not mean that you dont or cant fly, there are currently over 40 million Americans on food stamps today and millions of those people fly ) Barack Obama Sr. went to Indonesia??? What, to visit his ex-wife and her new husband? Seriously?? I’m sure everyone’s dream vacation in exotic lands includes a stay with the ex and the new guy… IIRC, the prez recounts almost no contact with his natural father until much later in life. His father dropped by for a month when he was 10 (so 1971?), and he first visited Kenya while a community organizer in Chicago, so his mid to late twenties. ---
**Author:** ![Susanann](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7ab992/32.png) [@Susanann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Susanann)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2011, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honolulu-to-nairobi-and-back-in-1961/580008/40 "2011-04-28T16:37:53Z")
> [@Giles](#): > > My father was a university lecturer and my mother was a school teacher: in 1961, they could have counted their air trips on zero hands. Obviously, your father was not Stanley Ann Dunham. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honolulu-to-nairobi-and-back-in-1961/580008.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honolulu-to-nairobi-and-back-in-1961/580008.md?page=3)