Which 707 model? There’s never a single version of any Boeing aircraft (for example, Southwest’s problems with the 737 seems to be on the 737-300 series and no problems have yet been found on the newer 737-800 series). As an aircraft evolves, the engines are upgraded and performance improves.
The earliest 707s couldn’t have made the NYC to Paris flight non-stop, but the first few upgrades made in the early 60s did push the capability sufficiently to allow for it. It depends on which particular 707 you catch. Being a more lucrative route, it’s likely any NYC to Paris route would be tagged for the latest airplane upgrades.
I don’t see why people are being so hard on Susanann. She made one trip on an airplane in 1962 and it was enjoyable. Therefore all airplane travel in the 1950s and 1960s for anyone, to anywhere, at anytime, in any circumstances was enjoyable. Don’t you see how this simplifies everything? Instead of doing research through all those tedious records and trying to come up a composite account for the thousands of incidents, all we needed to do was ask her how things were in her memory. That’s a boon to everyone.
From now on, we should run the entire site on this premise. Instead of people doing research or quoting cites, we can simply ask if Susanann had one experience. If she did, then that experience can be assumed to apply to all cases without exception.
My first experience on an airplane took place on a prop plane, not a jet. It was incredibly noisy and bumpy and scary. But that doesn’t count because it’s at variance with Susanann’s one experience. And if she remembers something, that trumps anybody else’s memories of anything. Because things were better in the past, not worse in every way, which is my memory. But that can’t be right. I wonder why my head can’t work like Susanann’s?
I hate to agree with you, but my mother, my 8 year old brother and I (who was a week under 10) flew from New York to Leopoldville on Nov. 6 - 7 1961 to meet my father who was there for the UN. We flew a Pan Am 707, which wasn’t all that new technology. We made stops in Dakar, Accra, Ghana, and Lagos, Nigeria. I have no idea of the cost because the UN paid, and we went first class. It was far less stressful than the average flight today - except when the Ghananians sprayed DDT on the passengers in case we brought any cooties from New York.
I don’t know about flights to Nairobi, but the UN staff flew all over Africa all the time, and lots came from Europe. Sabena, the Belgian airline, was the major one who flew into N’gile airport in Leopoldville. My flight, by the way, continued to South Africa.
At the time there was also plenty of jet service from LA to New York.
As I said, in Nov. 1961 our 707 made it from New York to Dakar without refueling, which I believe is considerably further than New York to Paris. I doubt a 707 would be a cost effective thing to build without transAtlantic range, but if you have a cite…
I flew a bit in the '60s, and extensively in the early '70s, and my worst flight then was probably better than my best flight now. In December 1970 my roommate and I flew from Boston to Texas for Christmas. A weather delay made us miss our flight in Houston. The airline automatically gave us a voucher for a night in a hotel and dinner - enough for me to have a 16 oz. steak. The airlines have screwed us over for so long I suspect most people can’t even imagine a time when flying was fun.
Hell Eastern Airlines used to serve steak - and good steak. In coach. For free.
The reason they did this (could do this) was that the cost of air travel and therefore the profit margin, was huge enough to sustain this level of service. NYC-France had a direct 707 service back then. London-Nairobi was served by jet twice a week by EAA and also served by BOAC. The conclusion - it was possible to fly jet, if you hit the rght schedule, and your jet probably did a milk run to visit several Afrcan cities.
This - Air Transportation: A Management Perspective - Alexander T. Wells - Google Books - suggests revenue of 6.1 cents/passenger mile in that year. This is domestic, but why would overseas be any different? about 10,000 miles at 6.1 cents is $610 (each way). Back when the minimum wage was probably much less than a dollar, $1200 was more than a Volkswagen cost. $2400, assuming babies travel free, is a HUGE sum in those days.
Cite from Boeing’s website on flight ranges of the 707.
The 707-120B was the first ‘production’ model 707, while the 320 series was the first model intended for true trans-Atlantic flight. They were both operating in the early 60s (the 120B in '58 or '59 and the 320 the following year).
Based on the numbers Boeing presents, a fully fueled and loaded 707-120B with a full complement of 141 passengers could travel roughly 3600 miles - barely enough to make the NY/Paris run and with nothing to spare for emergencies (not likely to happen). If fewer passengers were boarded to lessen the weight, it could probably make the run with fuel to spare.
NY/Dakar is 3800 miles. On a 707-120B, you’d need to board significantly fewer than the then rated 141 passenger limit and max out fuel. Or, if the run involves a 320, the modifications allowed for a range of beyond 4000 miles with 141 passengers. With an additional engine upgrade (for less noise and increased fuel efficiency), the range was extended even further out to beyond 6000 miles.
I think many airlines split the difference and increased the number of passengers up to 180 and still got some additional range..
So, like I noted above, it really depends on the particular 707. With a 320 series, the nonstop trip was possible. It would be technically possible on the 120 series, but no pilot would be comfortable landing on nearly an empty tank.
I’d rather this not develop into a full debate about Obama’s birthplace. If you want to engage Susanann on this subject, please open a thread in Great Debates (or the Pit). Let’s try to stick to the narrower topic in the OP, that is, aspects of air travel in the 1960s.
Air regs require 45 minutes fuel reserve for private planes. Not sure what the rule was for large commercial aircraft, but I believe it was sufficient fuel to make the alternate destination(s) and the 45-minute reserve. After all, you have to have enough to do a go-round or two if the first approach is a problem.
FYI - Honolulu -LAX-NYC-London-Cairo-Nairobi is about 13000 miles according to Google Earth. Nairobi-Delhi-Bankok-Hong Kong-Tokyo-Honolulu is 11,500 miles.
I knew someone would say this. As I said, this was business travel so I have no idea of the cost. However, when I was in college I took the shuttle between NY and Boston for about $15, student rate, which was about what the bus cost. (And they gave free bagels.) In 1976, when I was in grad school, I could pay my own airfare to a conference without hurting. Today some airfares are a lot cheaper than they were back then, considering inflation, and some are worse. You do get from one place to another the same way, and each person has to consider the value of intangibles. I have flown first class not so long ago, and besides the seat size the experience was roughly comparable to that of coach 30 years ago. The food was worse, but you still get free drinks.
I have no idea of how many passengers there were in steerage on my flight, but I recall that the first class compartment was significantly bigger than you commonly find today. Perhaps a larger first class section reduced weight while maintaining revenue.
Back then, remember, they paid for first class, though my father was not a big executive. Few companies today would in similar circumstances.
It’s likely to be the 141 passenger number I noted for the 120s.
The bigger 320s carried 189 passengers but still had the extended range. So, there wouldn’t be a revenue issue with those.
Back to the original point, no matter if it was a nonstop flight or not across the Atlantic, flying from Honolulu to Nairobi would involve multiple airlines and several stops and likely a lucky schedule combination to minimize travel time.
And $1000 to $2000 back then would be $10,000 to $40,000 today. Not something you’d do as a student, not something you’d do with a very real risk that you’d be stranded halfway, in a foreign land for an emergency birth - like London, Paris or Cairo, or Hong Kong or Delhi. I think the in-laws would be satisfied with pictures instead…
Actually, if you are in the later stages of pregnancy now most airlines require that you provide certification from a doctor that it is safe for you to fly. That alone makes it somewhat unusual. Being 18 has nothing to do with in. It’s not that a woman in the final months of pregnancy is too incapacitated to fly. It would probably be somewhat more uncomfortable for her than when she’s not pregnant, but that’s not the issue. The concern is that she might go into labor or experience an obstetric emergency en route. During my first pregnancy (1972)my doctor advised me not to go on any extended travel, and would certainly have put the kibosh on air travel.
Here is a Yahoo Answers page with the actual airfares. I definitely agree it would be a bit steep for a visit. Not all that much in the absolute sense, but a lot for a student. (Though the time-traveling conspirators could have paid. ) As for difficulty in number of stops, not that much worse than today. I’ve had my work travel agency computer try to do routes nearly that bad from SFO to Austin.
Here’s a Pan Am schedule from 1963(sorry, couldn’t find anything from 1961). You’ll see a round the world flight that includes a stop in Honolulu. By 1963, at least, there were daily flights.
Pan Am didn’t fly to Africa. TWA did, but they didn’t fly the Pacific. So the closest stop would have been Istanbul.
Leave Honolulu at 12:30 p.m. (local time).
Cross the International Dateline. Stops in Tokyo, Hong Kong, Bangkok, Rangoon, Calcutta, Karachi, Teheran, Beirut and arrive in Istanbul at 10:45 a.m. two days later. I’m not so good with time zones, but I think there has to be at least 18 hours in real time. And that only gets you as far as an American airline would go. The traveler would still have to get from the Middle East to Kenya.
I can’t find a Honolulu-Istanbul fare, but the entire timetable is here, and it shows the Honolulu-Tokyo leg by itself to be $345 (one way). According to this inflation calculator, that’s the equivalent of $2,519.48.
As far as flying while pregnant, I don’t know what the policies were back then, but guess what? Airlines can and do routinely ban flying in the late stages of pregnancy. Since Pan Am doesn’t exist anymore, here’s American Airlines’ policy.
I don’t have a cite - but I’d bet a very high percentage (approaching 100) of female Kansan’s married to Indonesian nationals that returned to Indonesia went with their husband’s, particularly in the 1960’s.
) As for difficulty in number of stops, not that much worse than today. I’ve had my work travel agency computer try to do routes nearly that bad from SFO to Austin.