# Honorable Republicans - are you out there? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 22, 2005, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honorable-republicans-are-you-out-there/313691 "2005-07-22T19:02:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2005, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honorable-republicans-are-you-out-there/313691/61 "2005-07-23T04:19:25Z")
> [@](#): > > An excellent example of why no one should pay the least bit of attention to that airheaded ninny. It wouldn’t sting if it didn’t have an element of truth. ---
**Author:** ![Slacker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6bbea6/32.png) [@Slacker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slacker)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2005, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honorable-republicans-are-you-out-there/313691/62 "2005-07-23T04:27:40Z")
_“If you’re a Republican… you’re either dumb… or you’re cruel.”_ It does have an element of truth, though I would add “ignorant” to the mix. Around these parts, people just vote Republican automatically, and most don’t know much, if anything, about what’s going on in the party. I know plenty of good people who vote Republican who just don’t know who (whom?) they’re voting for. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2005, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honorable-republicans-are-you-out-there/313691/63 "2005-07-23T04:40:15Z")
> [@Little Nemo](#): > > It wouldn’t sting if it didn’t have an element of truth. :: puts on Nancy Grace hat :: Ah disaghree!!! Ah disaghree!!! Ahem… Actually, it doesn’t sting at all. It’s just that none of like to be portrayed in a falsely negative light. Pubs/conservatives don’t like this “uncaring”, “cruel”, “heartless”, bullshit anymore than Dems/liberals like being called tree-hugging weenies. Take me, for example. I may not be the brightest bulb in the room, but I don’t think anyone who knows me would say that I’m dumb; and I’m about the most un-cruel person you’re likely to find. It’s true that some conservatives could be called dumb and/or cruel, but they are in the minority by far and are hardly a defining elements of conservatism, just as some liberals are tree-hugging weenies but they don’t define liberalism. Garofalo is a mindless nitwit who eagerly swallows liberal propaganda – such as that which tries to portray conservatives as greedy, selfish and cruel – and then routinely spouts off about one thing or another that she knows nothing about. I think less of her than even Al Franken, who, though I loath his politics and his manner, at least tries to bring a modicum of intellectual honesty to his arguments. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2005, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honorable-republicans-are-you-out-there/313691/64 "2005-07-23T04:50:09Z")
> [@Slacker](#): > > Tell me what you think of all this. Tell me how you can be an honorable person and be a Republican. The regular ways. > [@Slacker](#): > > Can this party be saved? Yes. [Keep giving the liberal entryists, the neocons, rope.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=276985) Anything else you need help with? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2005, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honorable-republicans-are-you-out-there/313691/65 "2005-07-23T05:16:30Z")
I think that **Patriot X** is living proof that the question should not have been whether “Republicans” can be reasonable. but whether reasonable people can still support Bush. If anything PX is an exemplar of how reasonable Republicans should have been responding to Bush from the beginning. ---
**Author:** ![NurseCarmen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5daacb/32.png) [@NurseCarmen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NurseCarmen)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2005, 6:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honorable-republicans-are-you-out-there/313691/66 "2005-07-23T06:05:40Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > In relation to Vietnam, let’s not fail to mention Truman and Kennedy. And yes, Eisenhower as well. > A 3:1 Democratic edge in warmongering. Or 3:2 if you count Nixon’s Cambodian episode and prolonged disengagement GWarI? Grenada? Somalia? Yugoslavia? GWII? Panama? Bay of Pigs? Lybia? Go ahead, count em all. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2005, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honorable-republicans-are-you-out-there/313691/67 "2005-07-23T12:35:38Z")
> [@Slacker](#): > > So do we have any official takers yet? **Shodan** and **smiling bandit** , do you guys (or gals) consider yourselves good people and support this administration? Can you explain it to the rest of us? Whether or not I am a good person is not for me to say. Yes, I support this administration overall, although not as automatically as it is opposed by a good many hereabouts. But no, I suspect I can’t explain it to many of the rest of you. That’s because a good deal of the opposition to Bush and Republicans is faith-based, like creationism. I can’t remember the exact quote, but it is something like: > [@](#): > > It is not possible to use reason to change a man’s positions, if he did not use reason to arrive at them in the first place. We saw that in the OP. The very first thing mentioned as a source of his discontent from this alleged Republican, the vandalism of the White House, turns out not to be true. But the notion that “Bush sux” is not fact-based, but faith-based, and thus is not changed. That’s why the Usual Suspects can chime in and blandly deny those facts which are inconvenient to their world view. Because they don’t start from the facts, and derive a position from those facts. It works the other way around. It’s not universal, but on some topics and with some people, it is not possible to have a reasonable discussion. Because, as we have seen, facts don’t matter, and anyone who disagrees gets called names. Reread the OP. Certain words often have specialized meanings when used in certain contexts. “Moderate”, when used in the media to qualify the term “Republican”, often means “pro-abortion”. “Honorable”, when used on the SDMB to qualify “Republican”, generally means “Bush-hating”. I don’t know enough about your posting, **Slacker** , to tell if you are a knee-jerker or not. But I suspect that anything about Rove will become a sacred cow on the SDMB, like Swift Boats or “the 2000 election was stolen” or “the US uses torture as official policy” or “Bush lied about WMD”, on which discussion is anathema - all posters are required to simply chime in with Bush-abuse, on pain of a pile-on. It doesn’t matter (for example) what facts come out of the Rove investigation, just like it doesn’t matter what facts the GAO found about the Clinton staffers. From now to eternity, the Usual Suspects will simply repeat what they assumed from the outset, and in increasingly louder voices. Goes down well on the SDMB. In the Presidential elections? Not so much. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2005, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honorable-republicans-are-you-out-there/313691/68 "2005-07-23T12:57:48Z")
[QUOTE=Shodan] No. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2005, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honorable-republicans-are-you-out-there/313691/69 "2005-07-23T13:04:33Z")
The White House vandalism story has either been debunked or proven depending on which cites you prefer. Somehow popping Ws off keyboards isn’t as serious a matter to me as lying to start a war. Or turning a record surplus into record debt. Or destroying reproductive freedom. The vandalism thing, even if true (which I don’t believe) is nothing more than a smokescreen, a misdirection from cunning and malevolent charlatans. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2005, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honorable-republicans-are-you-out-there/313691/70 "2005-07-23T13:24:34Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > destroying reproductive freedom. I didn’t know abortion had been outlawed. I better go read the paper. 😉 Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2005, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honorable-republicans-are-you-out-there/313691/71 "2005-07-23T13:33:19Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > I didn’t know abortion had been outlawed. I better go read the paper. Very amusing. Of course I meant the intent is there. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2005, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honorable-republicans-are-you-out-there/313691/72 "2005-07-23T14:41:01Z")
Boy, you guys slay me! Don’t you know when you’ve been had? Of course, friend **Shodan** knows that the whole “Goths Ransack Oval Office” story was a crock, only a compleat and total ignoranus wouldn’t know that! **Shoddy** is but another in a long, long line, through Calvin Coolidge down through Spiro Agnew and Prick Santorum of Republican droll, post-modern ironists! As one who treasures a crisp and acidic sarcasm, I gasp in admiration at the spoofery! _Jayvoo saloot!_ as they say in Lubbock! ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2005, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honorable-republicans-are-you-out-there/313691/73 "2005-07-23T15:07:06Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > That’s because a good deal of the opposition to Bush and Republicans is faith-based, like creationism. OK, who “invented” the “faith based” whatever? It wasn’t the Bush hating commies was it? > [@Shodan](#): > > Because they don’t start from the facts, and derive a position from those facts. It works the other way around. Here are some of the facts - no WMD, no nukes, no Niger yellow cake connection, no Al Queda connection, numerous serious security leaks to the press. > [@Shodan](#): > > But I suspect that anything about Rove will become a sacred cow on the SDMB, like Swift Boats or “the 2000 election was stolen” or “the US uses torture as official policy” or “Bush lied about WMD”, on which discussion is anathema - all posters are required to simply chime in with Bush-abuse, on pain of a pile-on. Rove leaked info, repeatedly over the years for his own beneift. George H W Bush fired him for it one time. Now under George W Bush he did it again. He invented push polling. He raised character assassination to a fine art form. The Swift Boaters were proved to be liars and goons. The administration did look into the use of torture and does use humiliation as a tool of “interrogation”. Abu Ghraig and Gitmo are the examples. Right now, a new policy is being written by the military to stop these abuses. Bush did deliberately “mis-state” about WMD. He still switches reasons as it suits him, and never recanted anything, no matter what ageny calls him on it. > [@Shodan](#): > > It doesn’t matter (for example) what facts come out of the Rove investigation, just like it doesn’t matter what facts the GAO found about the Clinton staffers. From now to eternity, the Usual Suspects will simply repeat what they assumed from the outset, and in increasingly louder voices. I am looking forward to seeing indictments handed down, hopefully followed by trials and convictions. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2005, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honorable-republicans-are-you-out-there/313691/74 "2005-07-23T15:50:17Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > OK, who “invented” the “faith based” whatever? It wasn’t the Bush hating commies was it? Dunno, it was here when I joined. > [@SteveG1](#): > > _snip of a long statement of faith_ Repeat it a few thousand more times, and louder each time. Maybe you can win the 2000 election yet. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2005, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honorable-republicans-are-you-out-there/313691/75 "2005-07-23T15:56:21Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > …Maybe you can win the 2000 election yet… You are wise to gloat while the opportunity still exists. See that handwriting? _“Mene mene tekel upharsin”?_ Translation available upon request. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2005, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honorable-republicans-are-you-out-there/313691/76 "2005-07-23T16:00:36Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Dunno, it was here when I joined. > Repeat it a few thousand more times, and louder each time. > > Maybe you can win the 2000 election yet. > > Regards, > Shodan 2000? 2004? I was one of those who was not interested in disputing the results (even though I voted for the other guy and was disappointed). However, winning an election does not alter what has happened since then. Heck, the Republicans may keep winning elections from now on. That does not alter things that have already been done (good or bad). The last election was what - a 51 percent squeaker? Not very good for a war president with a mandate, is it? Since then approval ratings have slipped. Numbers. That’s all. Instead of talking about who won elections, let’s talk about lies, administration orchestrated personal attacks, misdirection etc. That’s more interesting. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2005, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honorable-republicans-are-you-out-there/313691/77 "2005-07-23T16:16:00Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > You are wise to gloat while the opportunity still exists. See that handwriting? _“Mene mene tekel upharsin”?_ > > Translation available upon request. I assume that you’re offering the translation to the Godless Democrats who wouldn’t be familiar with it. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2005, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honorable-republicans-are-you-out-there/313691/78 "2005-07-23T16:20:27Z")
> [@](#): > > Whether or not I am a good person is not for me to say. Yes, I support this administration overall, although not as automatically as it is opposed by a good many hereabouts. > > But no, I suspect I can’t explain it to many of the rest of you. That’s because a good deal of the opposition to Bush and Republicans is faith-based, like creationism. > [@](#): > > But I suspect that anything about Rove will become a sacred cow on the SDMB, like Swift Boats or “the 2000 election was stolen” or “the US uses torture as official policy” or “Bush lied about WMD”, on which discussion is anathema - all posters are required to simply chime in with Bush-abuse, on pain of a pile-on. Shodan, you do realize all of these happened, right? Democrats and liberals and Bush haters didn’t just make them up. Not every detail and rumor will be true of course. But the 90% that is true outweighs the 10% that is false. At some point you have to realize the truth exists. It’s like saying “Richard Nixon lied” or “Bill Clinton cheated on his wife” - you can argue that these things don’t matter and you’re willing to overlook a man’s flaws because of his virtues. But denying the flaws exist demonstrates an inability to face reality. It’s possible that the reason people are saying Bush is a bad President is because he really is a bad President. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2005, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honorable-republicans-are-you-out-there/313691/79 "2005-07-23T16:24:14Z")
The problem with the Democratic party is that apparently it is full of cow orkers. Think of the cows, man. ---
**Author:** ![xbuckeye](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9e8a1a/32.png) [@xbuckeye](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xbuckeye)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2005, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honorable-republicans-are-you-out-there/313691/80 "2005-07-23T16:32:16Z")
> [@Slacker](#): > > Thanks for the long response, **xbuckeye**. Just for the record though, the few political stances you mentioned all match John Kerry exactly (abortion, SSM, legislating the bedroom). > > Out of curiosity, if this were Bush’s first term and the election was coming up, would you still vote for him merely because he’s the Republican candidate? Do you know of any principles the Republican party holds that you agree with? I agree with the agressive stance on international terrorism. People seem to forget that hundreds of thousands of people were killed in Iraq under Saddam Hussein’s rule for their ethnic roots. I wish we had more international support to fight the same battles in Africa, where people are also being killed for their ethnicity. Are things bad in Iraq? Yes, but it will never get better by itself. I agree with Social Security and Tax reform. I want to do what I want with my money rather than giving it to the federal government to spend how they want. People have become reliant on the federal government to be responsible for them, instead of being responsible for themselves. I agree with limiting ‘pain and suffering’ and punative settlements. Filing lawsuits has become a get rich quick scheme, mostly for the lawyers involved. Money does not make pain and suffering go away. The main reason I didn’t vote in 2000 is that I was more ambivalent towards the two candidates. Either in 2000 or 2004, a stronger Democratic candidate would have gotten my vote. I also value the role the Democratic party plays in the two party system when the Republicans are in charge. I felt safe voting for Bush because I know that abortion will not be completely banned. I know that SSM has a long way to go before it becomes acceptable enough to become nationally recognized. Too many Republicans and Democrats have gay friends or relatives and sisters or daughters who have had abortions to ever make either illegal. The two party system is self-moderating and the president just nudges the equilibrium in one direction or another. If (when) he has more power than that, that is when we need to start voting our senators and representatives out of office. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honorable-republicans-are-you-out-there/313691.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honorable-republicans-are-you-out-there/313691.md?page=5)