# Honors mathematics student has only 10% of normal brain volume. How can this be true? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [April 12, 2008, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honors-mathematics-student-has-only-10-of-normal-brain-volume-how-can-this-be-true/444989 "2008-04-12T02:49:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2008, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honors-mathematics-student-has-only-10-of-normal-brain-volume-how-can-this-be-true/444989/21 "2008-04-13T04:55:14Z")
So, apparently, mathematicians don’t make good zombi food. This is important to know. ---
**Author:** ![Tammi\_Terrell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7ba0ec/32.png) [@Tammi\_Terrell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tammi_Terrell)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2008, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honors-mathematics-student-has-only-10-of-normal-brain-volume-how-can-this-be-true/444989/22 "2008-04-13T15:15:01Z")
Barry Beyerstein’s remarkable “Whence Cometh the Myth that We Only Use 10% of Our Brains?” among other things touches on Lorber’s research, particularly some of the more sensationalized presentations of it. In PDF form (see p. 14 and beyond), [http://www.sfu.ca/~beyerste/research/articles/07TenPercent-of-Brain.pdf](http://www.sfu.ca/~beyerste/research/articles/07TenPercent-of-Brain.pdf) Roger Lewin’s report on Lorber’s research, “Is Your Brain Really Necessary?” (_Science_ 210: 1232-1234, 1980; mentioned in the link in the OP) also provides a helpful analysis of Lorber’s claims. Lewin mentions a paper Lorber delivered to “a conference of pediatricians” on whether, Lorber offered rather tongue-in-cheek, the brain was really necessary. I haven’t been able to find a reprint of this presented paper, except that it might have been published later in \*Nursing Mirror \* (152: 29-30, 1981), a presumably somewhat-less-than-top-tier publication likely not read by even your average neurologist. [QUOTE=JohnT] In the novel _The Exorcist_, published in 1971, Chris MacNeil takes her daughter Regan to the Mayo clinic to try to determine what’s wrong with her. In talking to one of the doctors, he (the doctor) mentions about how he knows of one kid, a brilliant mathematician, who came to him complaining of recurring migraines. When they studied his brain using a CAT scan they found out that he didn’t really have one - akin to the OP, the kid described in the novel had a brain stem and a lot of fluid, but no brain. [/QUOTE] I can’t speak to this anecdote’s appearance in The Exorcist, but something quite similar appears in Stephen King’s Thinner, published in 1984. One character tells another, > [@](#): > > A male student at George Washington University came in to see [a neurosurgeon-friend] because he was having blinding headaches. […] They found out that the kid, who had stood third in his high-school class and who had been on the dean’s list every semester at George Washington University, had almost no brain at all. There was a single twist of cortical tissue running up through the center of the skull – on the X rays my colleague showed me, it looked for all the world like a macrame drape-pull – and that was all. That drape-pull was probably running all of his involuntary functions, everything from breathing and heart rate to orgasm. Just that one rope of brain tissue. The rest of the kid’s head was filled with nothing but cerebrospinal fluid. In some ways we don’t understand, the fluid was doing his thinking. > > [pp. 57-58 of the 1985 Signet edition] I suspect tellings such as this appearing in popular works of fiction have done much to reinforce the misconception that we truly only use 10% of our brains. [QUOTE=Wendell Wagner] It appears though that the brain of the boy mentioned in the article linked to in the OP really does have a small brain mass (and thus less brain cells). The neurologist who examined him says that his brain has a mass of 50 to 150 grams. In contrast, the average brain is 1.5 kilograms (1500 grams). Thus the boy has no more than 10% of the mass of the average brain. [/QUOTE] As others have pointed out, this patient may have (or may have had) 10% of the mass of the average-sized brain, but what’s the evidence that this particular small brain contains (or contained) fewer brain cells than its normal counterpart? – Tammi Terrell ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2008, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honors-mathematics-student-has-only-10-of-normal-brain-volume-how-can-this-be-true/444989/23 "2008-04-13T15:27:27Z")
[QUOTE=Tammi Terrell] As others have pointed out, this patient may have (or may have had) 10% of the mass of the average-sized brain, but what’s the evidence that this particular small brain contains (or contained) fewer brain cells than its normal counterpart? – Tammi Terrell [/QUOTE] Are you suggesting that the brain cells themselves have on average 10% of the mass of normal brain cells? -FrL- ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2008, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honors-mathematics-student-has-only-10-of-normal-brain-volume-how-can-this-be-true/444989/24 "2008-04-13T15:31:11Z")
[QUOTE=Qadgop the Mercotan] And as I learn more and more about the brain and its functioning, the more it is apparent to me that we barely know anything about it at all. [/QUOTE] What percent of your brain did you use to deduce that? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2008, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honors-mathematics-student-has-only-10-of-normal-brain-volume-how-can-this-be-true/444989/25 "2008-04-13T15:35:59Z")
Does the average size of brain cells (or any cells) in different persons vary much at all? Are you claiming that the average size of brain cells in one person could be one-tenth of the average size of the brain cells in other persons? My impression has always been that the average size of cells in one individual of any one species is very close to the average size of cells in any other individual of that species, as long as one is comparing the same type of cell. Does anyone know more about this? ---
**Author:** ![Sigene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df788c/32.png) [@Sigene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sigene)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2008, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honors-mathematics-student-has-only-10-of-normal-brain-volume-how-can-this-be-true/444989/26 "2008-04-13T15:44:33Z")
[QUOTE=Wendell Wagner] I don’t know, but Nick Patterson, as I’ve mentioned, is hydrocephalic and a brilliant mathematician. I presume that his brain also has little mass, but I don’t know if anyone has checked. I’ve seen no sign in him of any mental deficiency. [/QUOTE] I didn’t see in this article where he was hydrocephalic or what his brain size is. Did you have other evidence that supports this? ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2008, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honors-mathematics-student-has-only-10-of-normal-brain-volume-how-can-this-be-true/444989/27 "2008-04-13T16:03:30Z")
As I said, I knew him, and many people in describing him called him hydrocephalic. I admit that I haven’t seen him for years. I never talked to him about his condition. Are there other conditions that cause the skull to bulge out like that? ---
**Author:** ![Tammi\_Terrell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7ba0ec/32.png) [@Tammi\_Terrell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tammi_Terrell)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2008, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honors-mathematics-student-has-only-10-of-normal-brain-volume-how-can-this-be-true/444989/28 "2008-04-13T16:29:53Z")
[QUOTE=Frylock] Are you suggesting that the brain cells themselves have on average 10% of the mass of normal brain cells? [/QUOTE] No. But there’s considerable seeming “dead space” (which isn’t dead space at all, since – for example – all sorts of chemical mediators are released and degraded there) surrounding brain cells and in myelinated tracts that is malleable to compression over a considerable length of time and under the right conditions. (See, for example, the [Nissl-stained section of primate primary visual cortex](http://retina.umh.es/Webvision/imageswv/Nissl-CO.jpg) on the left of this image.) I suspect that post-mortem evaluation of histological sections of compressed cortical areas \*in such rare, functional hydrocephalic patients \* show a very comparable number of cortical neurons to those of individuals with normal cortical appearance, though in much compressed layers of the cortex. (In other words, I think it likely that the ratio of neuronal number to neuropil volume is much higher _in these rare individuals_.) One would think it’s maintaining a normal neuronal number, numbers of synaptic contacts, and efficacy of synaptic transmission that’s crucial here for normal function. In the end, we don’t seem to know whether the individal Lorber described has/had a normal number or cortical neurons or whether he only has/had 10% of the number most individuals possess. My experience in basic neuroscience research favors considerably the former over the latter. – Tammi Terrell ---
**Author:** ![serious\_lark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@serious\_lark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/serious_lark)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2008, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honors-mathematics-student-has-only-10-of-normal-brain-volume-how-can-this-be-true/444989/29 "2008-04-13T20:04:54Z")
If you find this case interesting, I would like to recommend a book published in 2007 called The Brain That Changes Itself, by Norman Doidge (MD). Written for laypeople but could teach almost all doctors (and did teach me!) that the brain is a lot more adaptable than previously thought. I got several take-home messages from the book that is going to change how I approach learning, aging, etc. ---
**Author:** ![susan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/susan/32/17537_2.png) [@susan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/susan)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2008, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honors-mathematics-student-has-only-10-of-normal-brain-volume-how-can-this-be-true/444989/30 "2008-04-13T21:44:26Z")
There are a reasonable number of people who have had large parts of their brains removed. There are some obvious effects (like poor coordination) and some more subtle ones (as demonstrated in the “split-brain” experiments), but you could pick out other aspects of the person’s cognition that are normal. A related question might be, what _don’t_ people with non-normal brains do well, or what capabilities are compromised? ETA: **Bob55,** I hope your son continues to do well. ---
**Author:** ![engineer\_comp\_geek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/engineer_comp_geek/32/504_2.png) [@engineer\_comp\_geek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/engineer_comp_geek)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2008, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honors-mathematics-student-has-only-10-of-normal-brain-volume-how-can-this-be-true/444989/31 "2008-04-14T02:48:38Z")
I’ve read about hydrocephalic people before. Most of them have severe neurological problems, but some live surprisingly normal lives and aren’t aware they even have the condition until it is found through some unrelated event (like they have to have a head X-ray for some reason). There were a couple of cases in the early days where they autopsied a dead guy and found no brain, which caused more than a little confusion because the condition wasn’t really known back then. I’ve heard that even among those who live normal lives, their IQ tends to top out at about 130, which isn’t at all shabby for someone whose skull is mostly water, but isn’t as high as normally formed brains either. ---
**Author:** ![alterego](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/6bbea6/32.png) [@alterego](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alterego)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2008, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honors-mathematics-student-has-only-10-of-normal-brain-volume-how-can-this-be-true/444989/32 "2008-04-14T05:25:28Z")
Alright, I can’t take the speculation anymore! _marches off to Google Scholar_ Note that _most_ of the subjects in the available studies have been shunted since birth, and that’s how they know they have hydrocephalus and are thus available to participate in the study. So many of these folks are not as bad off as someone who wasn’t shunted. As this first study shows, before the emergence of shunting 75% of cases lead to death before adulthood. I just picked a few studies that I found interesting. As you might expect, no, these folks are not typically without significant disabilities across the board, although some can fall into the normal range on a variety of measures. > [@Wills](#): > > **Effects of Untreated HC** > > Three large-scale studies of HC children, conducted in the late 1950s to early 1960s before shunts were widely used, found that only 25% of untreated children survived to adulthood, and the survivors showed a vastly increased rate of serious mental retardation (Foltz & Shurtleff, 1963; Hadenius, Hagberg, Hyttnas-Bensch, & Sjogren, 1962; Hagberg, 1962; Hagberg & Sjogren, 1966; Laurence & Coates, 1962; Shurtleff, Foltz, & Loeser, 1973). Interestingly, among survivors the distribution of IQ scores at the upper end of the range seems to parallel that of the general population, in which half the children have IQ scores in the average or above average range, by definition. However, the IQ distribution among untreated children with HC is disproportionately high at the lower end of the range, where about 25% of the children have IQ scores below 50, signifying moderate to profound mental retardation (Hadenius et al., 1962; Laurence & Coate, 1962) > > [link](http://www.springerlink.com/content/w573l6363325566w/) > [@Rachel et al.](#): > > **Abstract** > > This study addressed the incidence of Attention-Deficit/Hyperactivity Disorder (ADHD) subtypes in children with spina bifida meningomyelocele and shunted hydrocephalus (SBH) as well as differences in executive functions among these subtypes. Parent rating scales revealed that 31% of the group with SBH could be identified with AD/HD, mostly the Inattentive type (23%). The group with SBH differed from normal controls on cognitive measures of executive functions, but subtype differences were not significant. Multivariate tests showed that children with SBH were rated with greater difficulties on the Behavior Rating Inventory of Executive Function (BRIEF) compared to controls; those with SBH and any subtype of ADHD differed from those with SBH and no ADHD; and those with ADHD (Combined Type) differed significantly from those with ADHD (Predominantly Inattentive Type). Subtype differences on univariate tests in the latter comparison were significant on the BRIEF Inhibit scale, showing more disinhibition in those with SBH and ADHD (Combined Type), but no significant differences were apparent on the BRIEF Sustain, Shift, and Initiate scales. The results show that the incidence of ADHD in children with SBH exceeds the population rate, is represented by problems with inattention rather than with impulsivity and hyperactivity; and that as with non-brain injured individuals, subtype differences in cognitive function remain to more clearly delineated. > > [link](http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/psych/chin/2005/00000011/00000003/art00001) > [@Dennis et al.](#): > > **Abstract** > > The developmental stability of poor math skill was studied in 31 young adults with spina bifida and hydrocephalus (SBH), a neurodevelopmental disorder involving malformations of the brain and spinal cord. Longitudinally, individuals with poor math problem solving as children grew into adults with poor problem solving and limited functional numeracy. As a group, young adults with SBH had poor computation accuracy, computation speed, problem solving, and functional numeracy. Computation accuracy was related to a supporting cognitive system (working memory for numbers), and functional numeracy was related to one medical history variable (number of lifetime shunt revisions). Adult functional numeracy, but not functional literacy, was predictive of higher levels of social, personal, and community independence. > > [link](http://www.informaworld.com/smpp/content~content=a784401235) ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2008, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honors-mathematics-student-has-only-10-of-normal-brain-volume-how-can-this-be-true/444989/33 "2008-04-14T07:35:46Z")
[QUOTE=WF Tomba] Little to none, as far as I can tell from reading reputable academic websites. [/QUOTE] I’ve seen it widely stated that the brain contains a large proportion of structural fat. Is this not true? ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2008, 9:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honors-mathematics-student-has-only-10-of-normal-brain-volume-how-can-this-be-true/444989/34 "2008-04-14T09:11:27Z")
engineer\_comp\_geek writes: \> I’ve heard that even among those who live normal lives, their IQ tends to top \> out at about 130, which isn’t at all shabby for someone whose skull is mostly \> water, but isn’t as high as normally formed brains either. Say what? Someone with an I.Q. of 130 isn’t as smart as someone with a normally formed brain? An I.Q. of 100 is average. You would only expect about one person in 40 to have an I.Q. greater than 130. I don’t know what study you’re quoting and I don’t know how many hydrocephalics it included in its sample. It may, for instance, only have included 30 such people. That would be typical of a scientific study. If none of those people had an I.Q. higher than 130, that would be typical of a group of average people. The person who I know, Nick Patterson, has an I.Q. of at least, say, 140. alterego writes: \> As you might expect, no, these folks are not typically without significant \> disabilities across the board, although some can fall into the normal range on a \> variety of measures. Nobody is questioning the fact that the majority of such people are profoundly retarded. The question is why some of them have normal intelligence. ---
**Author:** ![Sal\_Ammoniac](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8dc957/32.png) [@Sal\_Ammoniac](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sal_Ammoniac)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2008, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honors-mathematics-student-has-only-10-of-normal-brain-volume-how-can-this-be-true/444989/35 "2008-04-14T15:37:21Z")
[QUOTE=Wendell Wagner] I don’t know, but Nick Patterson, as I’ve mentioned, is hydrocephalic and a brilliant mathematician. I presume that his brain also has little mass, but I don’t know if anyone has checked. I’ve seen no sign in him of any mental deficiency. [/QUOTE] By the most amazing of coincidences, I passed this guy on the sidewalk the other day in Harvard Square. I had no idea who he was, just that he had a somewhat unusual appearance – lumpy head and one eye closed up. Next time I run across him, I’ll tell him Wendell says hello! ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2008, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honors-mathematics-student-has-only-10-of-normal-brain-volume-how-can-this-be-true/444989/36 "2008-04-14T16:26:57Z")
[QUOTE=Bob55] I hope it has merit…my son has an arachnoid cyst (similar to hydrocephalus) which pushes on the brain from the outside instead of in, although they may result from strokes according to his doctor. But, as large as his is (maybe 10% of his cranial cavity but hard to put a number on it even from an MRI), he is 100% normal at 22 months. He can run and play, count to 10, knows hundreds of words, is learning the alphabet, and amazes me everyday. So I hope the brain is able to compensate for at least some loss. At least it appears to have some ability to do so thus far. [/QUOTE] There are a surprising number of cases where a hemispherectomy (literally removing half the brain) has been performed on kids and they turned out remarkably well. Here is [one such story](http://www.nbc10.com/health/4563166/detail.html) and the young woman is headed to college (given the date of the article likely well through college at this point). A Google turns up a surprising number of stories like this. In [this article](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/2004175.stm) they mention the girl regained the ability to speak two languages fluently and the doctor said such recovery was not unusual in their experience with 65 such cases. I am not suggesting your son needs anything as dramatic as this kind of surgery but offer it to let you know the brain seems much more remarkable in its ability to recover and adapt from seemingly overwhelming damage. However, children seem more able to recover than adults. I am not so sure an adult could adapt after something so dramatic (not sure). ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2008, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honors-mathematics-student-has-only-10-of-normal-brain-volume-how-can-this-be-true/444989/37 "2008-04-14T17:07:00Z")
[QUOTE=Whack-a-Mole] A Google turns up a surprising number of stories like this. In [this article](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/2004175.stm) they mention the girl regained the ability to speak two languages fluently and the doctor said such recovery was not unusual in their experience with 65 such cases. [/QUOTE] > [@That Article](#): > > However, while the discovery amazed doctors at a Dutch hospital, UK experts say that in most cases, children who undergo such a drastic procedure do recover language skills. 😛 Those stupid dutch people. ---
**Author:** ![alterego](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/6bbea6/32.png) [@alterego](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alterego)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2008, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honors-mathematics-student-has-only-10-of-normal-brain-volume-how-can-this-be-true/444989/38 "2008-04-14T17:45:33Z")
[QUOTE=Wendell Wagner] Nobody is questioning the fact that the majority of such people are profoundly retarded. The question is why some of them have normal intelligence. [/QUOTE] Because “normal intelligence” has very little meaning. Intelligence is not a blanket term. These folks have deficiencies in some areas and are normal in the sense that they are average to above average in others. Notably, their intelligence quotients do not follow the typical distribution, so no, they are not “normal”. ---
**Author:** ![RiverRunner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/977dab/32.png) [@RiverRunner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RiverRunner)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2008, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honors-mathematics-student-has-only-10-of-normal-brain-volume-how-can-this-be-true/444989/39 "2008-04-14T17:49:07Z")
[QUOTE=Tammi Terrell] In the end, we don’t seem to know whether the individal Lorber described has/had a normal number or cortical neurons or whether he only has/had 10% of the number most individuals possess. My experience in basic neuroscience research favors considerably the former over the latter. – Tammi Terrell [/QUOTE] Am I allowed to mention how cool it was to have posts on brain anomalies from someone calling herself **Tammi Terrell**? RR ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2008, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honors-mathematics-student-has-only-10-of-normal-brain-volume-how-can-this-be-true/444989/40 "2008-04-14T17:50:18Z")
[QUOTE=alterego] Because “normal intelligence” has very little meaning. Intelligence is not a blanket term. These folks have deficiencies in some areas and are normal in the sense that they are average to above average in others. Notably, their intelligence quotients do not follow the typical distribution, so no, they are not “normal”. [/QUOTE] Hmm… I wonder what distribution my own intelligence quotient follows. I assume its normal, but who knows? I should check. -FrL- [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honors-mathematics-student-has-only-10-of-normal-brain-volume-how-can-this-be-true/444989.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/honors-mathematics-student-has-only-10-of-normal-brain-volume-how-can-this-be-true/444989.md?page=3)