# Hope for the Republican Party of the future? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [March 11, 2014, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hope-for-the-republican-party-of-the-future/683423 "2014-03-11T13:28:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2014, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hope-for-the-republican-party-of-the-future/683423/281 "2014-03-23T13:59:35Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > People should be treated as individuals and judged by their actions, not by race. Pretty simple. We’re discussing Paul Ryan’s comment, right? _ **His brief comment explicitly endorsed Charles Murray** _, co-author of _The Bell Curve_. **Lance** , Is _The Bell Curve_ an exposition of treating people as individuals, not by race? ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2014, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hope-for-the-republican-party-of-the-future/683423/282 "2014-03-25T13:22:52Z")
> [@nevadaexile](#): > > I don’t blame MOST White people for the sins of the past. I **DO** blame a number of them for the sins that they allow to continue. That’s what "White privilege "is. No, that’s not white privilege. That’s some people opposing efforts to end racial discrimination. > [@](#): > > When the playing field becomes level, let me know. No. I won’t let you know. You tell me what your specific proposals are for leveling it, and how you justify them. They are not automatically justified simply because they are intended to level the playing field. And those who oppose it are not automatically defending their “white privilege” either. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2014, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hope-for-the-republican-party-of-the-future/683423/283 "2014-03-25T13:30:19Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > It’s “whiteness”, not “white people”. LOL. Such a big difference. You think Ryan could use that one? He could just say “I was talking about blackness, not black people.” > [@](#): > > All this whining about etymology… I don’t choose the names. I’m just talking about the concepts that already have names. But you should REJECT any names that are unfair or misleading! You shouldn’t just go along with them, especially when they are politically charged. People try to bend the terms to their advantage all the time. “Pro-life” is one example. The struggle between the terms “illegal alien” and “undocumented person” is another. We should not just go along with it - and we aren’t required to. We can and should define our own terms and not just let others do it for us. We should insist on clear, fair, neutral terms and use them. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2014, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hope-for-the-republican-party-of-the-future/683423/284 "2014-03-25T13:33:11Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > As one example, it means that white people (in general) are given the benefit of the doubt after saying things/making mistakes like Paul Ryan did, while non-white people (in general) are not. Okay, perhaps. But the solution to that problem, if it exists, is not to presume that whites are guilty, it’s to presume that non-whites are innocent. Don’t you agree? > [@](#): > > Different styles work with different folks and at different times. Sometimes pissing people off is a sign that they are misinterpreting you, sometimes that you’re arguing poorly, and sometimes that one of you is just an asshole. That’s a completely fair statement. And I have observed all of these when I piss people off, and also when people piss me off. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2014, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hope-for-the-republican-party-of-the-future/683423/285 "2014-03-25T13:35:02Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > We’re discussing Paul Ryan’s comment, right? _ **His brief comment explicitly endorsed Charles Murray** _, co-author of _The Bell Curve_. > > **Lance** , Is _The Bell Curve_ an exposition of treating people as individuals, not by race? I didn’t say Ryan’s comment wasn’t racist. I said anything Ryan says shouldn’t be presumed to be racist until a good case is made that it is. And that shouldn’t be controversial at all. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2014, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hope-for-the-republican-party-of-the-future/683423/286 "2014-03-25T15:00:06Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > I didn’t say Ryan’s comment wasn’t racist. I said anything Ryan says shouldn’t be presumed to be racist until a good case is made that it is. And that shouldn’t be controversial at all. Drop it, **lance.** Drop it once and for all. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2014, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hope-for-the-republican-party-of-the-future/683423/287 "2014-03-25T15:05:57Z")
You’re doing it wrong. **Lance** , you are totally right, in every respect and in all particulars. We are in unanimous and universal agreement that you are, without question, the most cogent and correct poster on this or any message board. We are not worthy. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2014, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hope-for-the-republican-party-of-the-future/683423/288 "2014-03-25T15:06:56Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Drop it, **lance.** Drop it once and for all. No. I have an opinion, and I think I’m right, and if all you can think to say is “drop it,” then I’d say you’re running out of ideas. You can drop it if you want. I will let septimus respond to my post to him. I think he understands what I’m saying. If you don’t like the discussion, kindly stay out of it. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2014, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hope-for-the-republican-party-of-the-future/683423/289 "2014-03-25T15:08:03Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > You’re doing it wrong. > > **Lance** , you are totally right, in every respect and in all particulars. We are in unanimous and universal agreement that you are, without question, the most cogent and correct poster on this or any message board. We are not worthy. I didn’t say that. Nice straw man. Why is it that you can’t handle someone disagreeing with you? Why is it that you think disagreeing with you is somehow arrogant? I’d say that makes you the arrogant one - you think your views can’t possibly be wrong and shouldn’t be questioned. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2014, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hope-for-the-republican-party-of-the-future/683423/290 "2014-03-25T15:09:13Z")
It was worth a shot. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2014, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hope-for-the-republican-party-of-the-future/683423/291 "2014-03-25T15:16:29Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > It was worth a shot. You’re going to have to, you know, use logic and rational discussion and stuff instead. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2014, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hope-for-the-republican-party-of-the-future/683423/292 "2014-03-25T15:42:35Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > No. > > I have an opinion, and I think I’m right, and if all you can think to say is “drop it,” then I’d say you’re running out of ideas. > > You can drop it if you want. > > I will let septimus respond to my post to him. I think he understands what I’m saying. If you don’t like the discussion, kindly stay out of it. I meant this incredible, inexplicable sensitivity you have to accusations of racism which you hammer into hijacks in thread after thread after thread. Drop **that** once and for all. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2014, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hope-for-the-republican-party-of-the-future/683423/293 "2014-03-25T15:48:28Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > LOL. Such a big difference. > > You think Ryan could use that one? He could just say “I was talking about blackness, not black people.” Except that he was talking about people – “inner city” people, which has been used in the past as code for black people. “Whiteness” and “blackness” are not people – they are cultural concepts. > [@](#): > > But you should REJECT any names that are unfair or misleading! You shouldn’t just go along with them, especially when they are politically charged. I don’t find them unfair or misleading. “Whiteness” describes a real cultural concept – one that we should work hard to eliminate, but that would be much harder to eliminate if it wasn’t recognized (and named). > [@](#): > > People try to bend the terms to their advantage all the time. “Pro-life” is one example. The struggle between the terms “illegal alien” and “undocumented person” is another. > > We should not just go along with it - and we aren’t required to. We can and should define our own terms and not just let others do it for us. We should insist on clear, fair, neutral terms and use them. Fine – I insist on the clear, fair, and neutral term “whiteness” to describe the cultural concept being discussed. And luckily, it’s already defined and has been in use for decades. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2014, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hope-for-the-republican-party-of-the-future/683423/294 "2014-03-25T15:54:38Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > Okay, perhaps. But the solution to that problem, if it exists, is not to presume that whites are guilty, it’s to presume that non-whites are innocent. Don’t you agree? That might be one way to approach that problem, and would definitely be an improvement. Those assumptions are part your favorite cultural concept of “whiteness”. > [@](#): > > That’s a completely fair statement. And I have observed all of these when I piss people off, and also when people piss me off. You’re not pissing me off, but I do think your argument about “whiteness” comes down to just whining about a cultural concept that you didn’t (and perhaps still don’t) understand and/or recognize. Though you seem to have acknowledged the existence of every example mentioned so far of the ramifications of “whiteness”, which makes it difficult for me to understand why you have such a problem with naming and recognizing the concept. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2014, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hope-for-the-republican-party-of-the-future/683423/295 "2014-03-25T15:56:49Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > I meant this incredible, inexplicable sensitivity you have to accusations of racism which you hammer into hijacks in thread after thread after thread. Drop **that** once and for all. You may think that racism is no big deal, but I don’t. And I think that false accusations of racism are just as bad as racism itself. That’s because 1) I think racism is very evil, so it’s quite a serious accusation and 2) false accusations of racism only hurt things by making people take real accusations of racism less seriously.\* So no, I won’t. \*“False” meaning “without good evidence,” not just erroneous. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2014, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hope-for-the-republican-party-of-the-future/683423/296 "2014-03-25T15:59:49Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > That might be one way to approach that problem, and would definitely be an improvement. No, it is the only just way to approach the problem. > [@](#): > > Those assumptions are part your favorite cultural concept of “whiteness”. No, they are fundamental principles of both ethics and our system of justice. And they are shared by blacks and other races. Ask any black person if he/she believes in “innocent until proven guilty.” > [@](#): > > You’re not pissing me off, but I do think your argument about “whiteness” comes down to just whining about a cultural concept that you didn’t (and perhaps still don’t) understand and/or recognize. Then feel free to explain. > [@](#): > > Though you seem to have acknowledged the existence of every example mentioned so far of the ramifications of “whiteness”, which makes it difficult for me to understand why you have such a problem with naming and recognizing the concept. You don’t see the difference? I can complain about an unfair label applied to a real concept. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2014, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hope-for-the-republican-party-of-the-future/683423/297 "2014-03-25T16:03:09Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Except that he was talking about people – “inner city” people, which has been used in the past as code for black people. “Whiteness” and “blackness” are not people – they are cultural concepts. But if Ryan used the term, you wouldn’t defend it as a “cultural concept,” would you? No, you’d scream racism! > [@](#): > > I don’t find them unfair or misleading. “Whiteness” describes a real cultural concept – one that we should work hard to eliminate, but that would be much harder to eliminate if it wasn’t recognized (and named). But calling a cultural concept “whiteness” is unfair because it presumes that all whites fall under it or even support it. I shouldn’t even have to explain why a culture named for a race isn’t fair. > [@](#): > > Fine – I insist on the clear, fair, and neutral term “whiteness” to describe the cultural concept being discussed. And luckily, it’s already defined and has been in use for decades. It is not fair nor neutral. > [@](#): > > And luckily, it’s already defined and has been in use for decades. You’re still doing it. Being defined and used for decades doesn’t make a term fair or neutral. By that logic, we couldn’t question racial slurs, for instance. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2014, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hope-for-the-republican-party-of-the-future/683423/298 "2014-03-25T16:06:16Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > No, it is the only just way to approach the problem. That’s an opinion that I don’t share. If someone says “blacks are dumb” (for example), I see no need to assume some sort of innocent explanation, like he/she was talking about a rugby team. It’s possible, sure, but I feel no moral obligation to give everyone, at any time, the benefit of the doubt. > [@](#): > > No, they are fundamental principles of both ethics and our system of justice. And they are shared by blacks and other races. I wasn’t talking about those assumptions, I was talking about the assumptions in the cultural concept of “whiteness” about white and black people. > [@](#): > > Then feel free to explain. Done (in a simplified/my language way) in [this post](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=17217885&postcount=237). > [@](#): > > You don’t see the difference? I can complain about an unfair label applied to a real concept. So you just don’t like the name? Fine. From now on, when I discuss that cultural concept with you, I will call it “the cultural concept formerly known as ‘whiteness’”. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2014, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hope-for-the-republican-party-of-the-future/683423/299 "2014-03-25T16:09:47Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > I meant this incredible, inexplicable sensitivity you have to accusations of racism which you hammer into hijacks in thread after thread after thread. Drop **that** once and for all. Let me explain this in political terms, if that’s all you happen to care about. I’m speaking in general terms, not specifically about what Ryan or anyone else said. When liberals yell “racism!” at every little thing conservatives say, no matter how shaky the case, people stop listening to liberals and they stop listening to complaints about racism. They roll their eyes. This hurts liberals, and it hurts victims of real racism, because people stop listening. They doubt our credibility. It’s the story of the boy who cried wolf. So when I stick up for people accused of racism and demand good evidence and all that, I’m fighting racism. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2014, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hope-for-the-republican-party-of-the-future/683423/300 "2014-03-25T16:13:18Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > But if Ryan used the term, you wouldn’t defend it as a “cultural concept,” would you? No, you’d scream racism! Why would you try to put words in my mouth? If he was talking about a cultural concept, it would be totally different than talking about people. > [@](#): > > But calling a cultural concept “whiteness” is unfair because it presumes that all whites fall under it or even support it. I shouldn’t even have to explain why a culture named for a race isn’t fair. I don’t think it presumes that all whites fall under or support it. And it’s not a culture – it’s a cultural concept. It’s not named for a race so much as related to race and historically racist treatment of various peoples, but as I’ve said before, I’m happy to use “cultural concept formerly known as ‘whiteness’” when I discuss it with you, if that would stop your whining about the name. > [@](#): > > It is not fair nor neutral. Says you, but I’m happy to use “cultural concept formerly known as ‘whiteness’”. Just to make you happy. > [@](#): > > You’re still doing it. Being defined and used for decades doesn’t make a term fair or neutral. By that logic, we couldn’t question racial slurs, for instance. I am talking about a cultural concept, not a slur. Slurs should never be used, no matter what their names are, while cultural concepts are real and reasonable topics of discussion. It just so happens that the concept I’m talking about already has a name, but I’m happy to use a different one when discussing it with you. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hope-for-the-republican-party-of-the-future/683423.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hope-for-the-republican-party-of-the-future/683423.md?page=16)