# Horn player's jowls - permanent damage? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [September 18, 2004, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/horn-players-jowls-permanent-damage/264901 "2004-09-18T21:01:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Mr.Blue\_Sky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d26b3c/32.png) [@Mr.Blue\_Sky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Blue_Sky)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2004, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/horn-players-jowls-permanent-damage/264901/1 "2004-09-18T21:01:02Z")
I’ve noticed that a lot of long time horn players, like Dizzy Gillespie, have huge jowls. Can this cause permanent damage to the jaw muscles? If they were to stop playing, would the muscles return to their original pre-horn-playing shape? ---
**Author:** ![Jake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jake)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2004, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/horn-players-jowls-permanent-damage/264901/2 "2004-09-18T21:41:53Z")
> [@Mr. Blue Sky](#): > > I’ve noticed that a lot of long time horn players, like Dizzy Gillespie, have huge jowls. > > Can this cause permanent damage to the jaw muscles? If they were to stop playing, would the muscles return to their original pre-horn-playing shape? Brass players and most other musicians are taught to NOT use their cheeks or their mouth to store air, or use their mouths as an “Airbag”’. The slight pressure on the mouthpiece of the instrument is driven by the diapaham, and supports the lips or “Chops” which do the work of playing music. String players excepted of course. You’ll have to ask a Drummer what the hell he does. I think they Do breathe. On occasion. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Jake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jake)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2004, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/horn-players-jowls-permanent-damage/264901/3 "2004-09-18T21:44:09Z")
Originally Posted by Mr. Blue Sky I’ve noticed that a lot of long time horn players, like Dizzy Gillespie, have huge jowls. Can this cause permanent damage to the jaw muscles? If they were to stop playing, would the muscles return to their original pre-horn-playing shape? Brass players and most other musicians are taught to NOT use their cheeks or their mouth to store air, or use their mouths as an “Airbag”’. The slight pressure on the mouthpiece of the instrument is driven by the diapaham, and supports the lips or “Chops” which do the work of playing music. String players excepted of course. You’ll have to ask a Drummer what the hell he does. I think they Do breathe. On occasion. Today 05:01 PM Mr. Blue Sky I’ve noticed that a lot of long time horn players, like Dizzy Gillespie, have huge jowls. Can this cause permanent damage to the jaw muscles? If they were to stop playing, would the muscles return to their original pre-horn-playing shape? ---
**Author:** ![mdf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/dbc845/32.png) [@mdf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mdf)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2004, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/horn-players-jowls-permanent-damage/264901/4 "2004-09-18T23:21:35Z")
Dizzy was self-taught, and it probably didn’t occur to him to play any other way. Whatever the reason, it apparently worked for him. I can’t picture any other horn players who do this - who else were you thinking of? -mdf ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Blue\_Sky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d26b3c/32.png) [@Mr.Blue\_Sky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Blue_Sky)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2004, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/horn-players-jowls-permanent-damage/264901/5 "2004-09-18T23:43:50Z")
Louis Armstrong, but not nearly to the same degree. I’ve seen other horn players (one of the Marsalis brothers, can’t recall which) seem to have large cheek muscles, but not so much the jowl area. It looks like they have large marbles in their cheeks. I remember seeing Dizzy on the Muppet Show. At the end, he says to Kermit, “You know, I like frogs.” Kermit asks why and Dizzy replies. “Because they can do this…” and proceeds to blow his jowls up. Nice reaction from Kermit. ---
**Author:** ![BrotherCadfael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@BrotherCadfael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrotherCadfael)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2004, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/horn-players-jowls-permanent-damage/264901/6 "2004-09-19T00:07:59Z")
If I recall correctly, the condition is now designated by the medical authorities as “Gillespie pouches”. And, yes, my first thought was the Kermit incident described above. ---
**Author:** ![NoCoolUserName](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5fc32e/32.png) [@NoCoolUserName](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NoCoolUserName)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2004, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/horn-players-jowls-permanent-damage/264901/7 "2004-09-19T01:08:24Z")
Louis Armstrong used to inject novocaine into his lips so he could keep playing hour after hour. IMNAMD (nor do I play one on TV), but if you don’t mistreat your face, it probably won’t be affected by your horn playing. ---
**Author:** ![FilmGeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b19c9b/32.png) [@FilmGeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FilmGeek)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2004, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/horn-players-jowls-permanent-damage/264901/8 "2004-09-19T05:23:54Z")
In junior high there was a set of identical twins in the jazz band. (I played trumpet.) One twin played the trombone. One played keyboard. The only difference between the two was the highly developed jaw muscles in the trombone player. Dizzy played “incorrectly” according to proper school methods. I have no idea how he managed it, as playing that way is incredibly difficult and painful if you go too long. So, there is a difference, but there’s no more permanent damage than if you exercised any other muscle. IANAD. ---
**Author:** ![aerodave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f08c70/32.png) [@aerodave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aerodave)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2004, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/horn-players-jowls-permanent-damage/264901/9 "2004-09-19T23:21:09Z")
All these descriptions don’t sound to me like muscle development/growth/damage. It sounds a lot more like stretching of the cheeks’ skin. There aren’t really any muscles in the forward part of the cheek between the lip muscles and the hinge of the jaw (no majorly important ones, anyway) And I don’t think the horn players are doing anythign with their mouths that would cause their jaw muscles to grow. Lips maybe, but I don’t think you can gaina lot of muscle mass in your lips. Big jowls seem more like a result of frequent stretching due to holding high-pressure air in them. Muscles shouldn’t really play a part. ---
**Author:** ![brad\_d](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@brad\_d](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brad_d)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2004, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/horn-players-jowls-permanent-damage/264901/10 "2004-09-20T19:48:13Z")
[Here](http://www.mmaonline.net/publications/MNMed2003/February/Meyer.html) is an article, written by a physician, on some of the physical hazards of trumpet playing. It’s an interesting read. Dizzy Gillespie’s condition is mentioned: > [@](#): > > The bulging cheeks of Dizzy Gillespie are a case study for the potentially damaging effects of a trumpeter’s pressure farther down the respiratory tract. Trumpet teachers go to great lengths to discourage their fifth graders from bulging their cheeks. Dizzy’s cheeks got larger and more pliable as the years progressed. He eventually developed swelling under his jaw when he played, a condition called a pharyngocoele, which is like a hernia of the tissues of the throat caused by high intrapharyngeal pressures. A similar bulging, a laryngocoele, can occur at the level of the larynx. Although Dizzy never seemed bothered, the stretching involved can be disturbing, if not painful. ---
**Author:** ![bughunter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/aeb1de/32.png) [@bughunter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bughunter)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2004, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/horn-players-jowls-permanent-damage/264901/11 "2004-09-20T20:56:43Z")
> [@NoCoolUserName](#): > > Louis Armstrong used to inject novocaine into his lips so he could keep playing hour after hour. I used to play trombone in high school, and can testify that after a couple hours of constant lip-flapping-into-a-baritone-cup, the entire lower half of one’s face does indeed feel as if it is under the influence of novocaine. Perhaps ol’ Louis thought he’d just dispense with the warmups and go straight into condition numbface.