# Horse Kicks Man - OK; Man Kicks Horse - Suspension **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [October 14, 2004, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/horse-kicks-man-ok-man-kicks-horse-suspension/269159 "2004-10-14T04:38:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 10\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2004, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/horse-kicks-man-ok-man-kicks-horse-suspension/269159/1 "2004-10-14T04:38:19Z")
In the latest issue of Sports Illustrated, there’s a mention in passing that harness racing driver Walter Case Jr. has been repeatedly suspended for kicking his horses. I must be missing something. It’s okay to whip a horse but not to kick it? Or did Case do his kicking during line dances in the barn or something? Anyone knowledgeable about the harness racing world? ---
**Author:** ![Nametag](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nametag/32/406_2.png) [@Nametag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nametag)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2004, 5:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/horse-kicks-man-ok-man-kicks-horse-suspension/269159/2 "2004-10-14T05:43:15Z")
Actually, no. Whips must be used with restraint in racing – anything that leaves a mark or draws official attention can get a jockey fined, suspended, etc. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2004, 12:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/horse-kicks-man-ok-man-kicks-horse-suspension/269159/3 "2004-10-14T12:02:15Z")
From [Standardbred/Harness Racing: Racing Breeds, Rules and Regulations](http://animal.cals.arizona.edu/classes/ans142/readings/Module-07.html) Kicking: > [@](#): > > (l) Kicking the horse, which shall be defined as a blow or thrust with the foot against any part of the horse’s body or to impel by striking with the foot. Removal of a foot from the stirrups in and of itself shall not constitute the offense of kicking. The penalty for kicking as defined herein shall not be less than 9 days suspension. vs use of whip: > [@](#): > > § 9. Drivers will be allowed whips not to exceed 3 feet, 9 inches, plus a snapper not longer than 6 inches. Provided further that the following actions shall be considered as excessive or indiscriminate use of the whip: > > a. Causing visible injury. > > b. Whipping a horse after a race. > > c. Whipping under the arch or shafts of the sulky. > > The use of the whip shall be confined to an area above and between the sulky shafts, to include the sulky shafts and the outside wheel discs. Drivers shall keep a line in each hand from the start of the race until the head of the stretch finishing the race. At extended pari‑mutuel meetings, under the supervision of the judges, there shall be a mandatory visual inspection of each horse following each race for evidence of excessive or brutal use of the whip. At all other meetings, the judges shall have the authority to order and/or conduct such visual inspections at their discretion. > > § 10. The use of any goading device, chain or mechanical devices or appliances, othe than the ordinary whip or crop upon any horse in any race shall constitute a violation of this rule. > > § 11. The brutal use of a whip or crop or excessive or indiscriminate use of the whip or crop shall be considered a violation and shall be punished by a fine and/or suspension. The mandatory minimum penalty for a whipping violation shall be a fine in the amount of $100.00 and a 3 day suspension from driving for the first offense, and for each subsequent violation the mandatory minimum penalty shall increase in the amount of $100.00 and 3 days (e.g. $200.00 and 6 days for the 2nd offense, $300.00 and 9 days for the 3rd offense, etc.) ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2004, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/horse-kicks-man-ok-man-kicks-horse-suspension/269159/4 "2004-10-14T15:44:52Z")
I get that there is a distinction, but I don’t yet get the why. From what I remember of the way sulkies are built I can’t see that the driver has the leverage to even reach the horse much less kick a horse in a way as to cause damage. This sulky catalog appears to confirm that. [JERALD LEADER SULKY](http://www.jeraldsulky.com/jeraldRacingLeaderSulky.html). Is this incorrect? Is kicking considered as brutal as a harsh whip stroke? Or is there some other rationale? ---
**Author:** ![don\_t\_ask](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e68b1a/32.png) [@don\_t\_ask](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/don_t_ask)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2004, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/horse-kicks-man-ok-man-kicks-horse-suspension/269159/5 "2004-10-14T15:57:27Z")
I actually drove a pacer in trackwork once, not knowing how scary it would be, and I can’t imagine how it would be possible to kick the horse. The only method available to me to alter the horse’s speed was the reins. Sitting in the sulky your legs are fully extended and are feet from the rear of the horse. The reason driving pacers is scary is the other horses. The one behind you has it’s head so close to the back of your head that it slobbers all over you as you do laps. ---
**Author:** ![Trunk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/87869e/32.png) [@Trunk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trunk)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2004, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/horse-kicks-man-ok-man-kicks-horse-suspension/269159/6 "2004-10-14T16:48:14Z")
> [@](#): > > § 9. Drivers will be allowed whips not to exceed 3 feet, 9 inches, plus a snapper not longer than 6 inches. Provided further that the following actions shall be considered as excessive or indiscriminate use of the whip: > > a. Causing visible injury. > > b. Whipping a horse after a race. Now, what’s wrong with whipping the horse after a race. I don’t think I want to live in a country where you can’t whip the horse after the race. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2004, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/horse-kicks-man-ok-man-kicks-horse-suspension/269159/7 "2004-10-14T20:26:52Z")
You and Jim Morrison: > [@](#): > > We’re gonna ride and have some fun > When all else fails, We can whip the horse’s eyes > And make them sleep, And cry He was suspended for this. Permanently. Still no answer to my question, though. ---
**Author:** ![vetbridge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b5e925/32.png) [@vetbridge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vetbridge)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2004, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/horse-kicks-man-ok-man-kicks-horse-suspension/269159/8 "2004-10-14T20:51:15Z")
> [@Trunk](#): > > Now, what’s wrong with whipping the horse after a race. Kinda like choking the chicken after a cock fight. ---
**Author:** ![Hello\_Again](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/85e7bf/32.png) [@Hello\_Again](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hello_Again)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2004, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/horse-kicks-man-ok-man-kicks-horse-suspension/269159/9 "2004-10-14T22:00:28Z")
If you’re looking to the why, it’s because kicking a harness horse cannot possibly have any purpose _other_ than venting your ire. Ergo, it is abusive behavior. Tracks and racing organizations prefer to prevent abusive behavior. By comparison, the whip is an artificial aid indicating “go faster.” While it is certainly possible to abuse a horse by whipping it, safeguards, already noted above, discourage/punish abusive use of the whip. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2004, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/horse-kicks-man-ok-man-kicks-horse-suspension/269159/10 "2004-10-14T22:14:46Z")
That says outright what people have been implying, so thanks for the confirmation. Now I guess after why, the next question is how? **don’t ask** confirmed my impression that kicking a horse during a race is next to impossible. Is this wrong, or is Case double-jointed, or were the kicks not during a race?