# Hot riveting by hand: How common today **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [December 5, 2021, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hot-riveting-by-hand-how-common-today/955549 "2021-12-05T17:31:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![jnglmassiv](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f07891/32.png) [@jnglmassiv](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jnglmassiv)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2021, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hot-riveting-by-hand-how-common-today/955549/1 "2021-12-05T17:31:38Z")
I was watching this clip that showed a riveting team during the construction of the Chrysler building in 1920. A guy throws a red hot rivet to another who catches it and puts it into the joint and a third man hammers the second head into shape. Clip: [https://old.reddit.com/r/OldSchoolCool/comments/r9c3po/risking\_lives\_to\_build\_new\_york\_skyscrapers\_1920/](https://old.reddit.com/r/OldSchoolCool/comments/r9c3po/risking_lives_to_build_new_york_skyscrapers_1920/) Are any buildings hot riveted together anymore? The rivet wikipedia article says: > Until relatively recently, structural steel connections were either welded or riveted. High-strength bolts have largely replaced structural steel rivets. Indeed, the latest steel construction specifications published by … no longer covers their installation. The reason for the change is primarily due to the expense of skilled workers required to install high strength structural steel rivets. Whereas two relatively unskilled workers can install and tighten high strength bolts, it normally takes four skilled workers to install rivets (warmer, catcher, holder, basher). Understandable in Dubai but is this used in US cities like New York where union labor has remained strong? Bridges? Train locomotives? Large boilers? ---
**Author:** ![Snipe70e](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/51bf81/32.png) [@Snipe70e](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snipe70e)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2021, 6:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hot-riveting-by-hand-how-common-today/955549/2 "2021-12-06T06:04:14Z")
Boilers No. Ships, you bet. In WWII through the 60’s every now and then a completely welded ship would crack in half. I was on a T-2 tanker that was launched without rivets. In several places in the hull a slice was cut into the hull and a butt strap was riveted in place over the slice. The problem was with completely welded ships if crack were to start in the hull it could travel completely around the ship. With the slice and butt strap any crack can only travel so far until it reaches hte slice. I would doubt any buildings are riveted. Timing is important in riveting. The rivet needs to be hammered while still at the proper temperature. And the strenght of rivets are not constant. But a tempered bolt is a tempered bolt no matter which box they came from. That is unless they came from China, then it is a hopping game. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2021, 6:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hot-riveting-by-hand-how-common-today/955549/3 "2021-12-06T06:37:15Z")
Seriously? What riveted steel hull ships have been built in the last fifty years? Naval maybe? Never heard of it in merchant shipping. ---
**Author:** ![Francis\_Vaughan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/francis_vaughan/32/3093_2.png) [@Francis\_Vaughan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Francis_Vaughan)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2021, 8:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hot-riveting-by-hand-how-common-today/955549/4 "2021-12-06T08:31:52Z")
I was hoping for someone in the business to give a technical answer. The same question had occurred to me recently. Watching videos of the progress SpaceX is making building its new launch and production facilities the use of bolted construction it remarkable. I wondered when the change in technology took hold. One would imagine that the point made above is a critical one. The heat profile of a rivet being set is hard to control in the same manner as factory production of a high tensile bolt. Bolts are vastly easier and faster to install. But the story of the change in the industry would be interesting. As to ships. The Liberty ships were the poster child for the pros and cons of early welded construction. But the bugs were sorted out a long time ago. Submarines are an interesting case. Their life is limited by the number of refits the hull can endure. A refit requires slicing the hull to gain access, and rewelding once done. This can only be done so many times. But it is done. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2021, 9:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hot-riveting-by-hand-how-common-today/955549/5 "2021-12-06T09:19:44Z")
Tall buildings aren’t steel girder construction at all now, are they? They are made of reinforced concrete. So the entire question is mute. ---
**Author:** ![bob\_2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bob_2/32/3341_2.png) [@bob\_2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bob_2)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2021, 11:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hot-riveting-by-hand-how-common-today/955549/6 "2021-12-06T11:11:10Z")
I don’t know about tall buildings, but I have been watching a large warehouse near me being built as I drive past almost daily. It took them a while to clear the land, put in groundworks and lay the concrete slab. I saw the steel arrive, and in two days the structure was pretty much assembled with the aid of four cranes and a small army of people on cherry pickers bolting things together. Once that was up, they just hung panels on it to make the walls. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2021, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hot-riveting-by-hand-how-common-today/955549/7 "2021-12-06T12:48:55Z")
Could the use of modern powered tools have anything to do with that switch from rivets to bolts? Something light enough to use easily, powerful enough to tighten it fully, but also could ensure a proper and consistent torquing of the bolt. ---
**Author:** ![Francis\_Vaughan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/francis_vaughan/32/3093_2.png) [@Francis\_Vaughan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Francis_Vaughan)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2021, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hot-riveting-by-hand-how-common-today/955549/8 "2021-12-06T13:12:55Z")
The changover from hot rivets to bolts seems to have occurred from early work in the 40’s to codified established practice in the early 70s. I note that the NASA’s Vertical Assembly Building, built in the early 60’s is bolted. I found what it probably the definitive book. Guide to Design Criteria for Bolted and Riveted Joints > **[2ndEditionGuide.pdf](https://www.boltcouncil.org/files/2ndEditionGuide.pdf)** > > 6.67 MB In it the introductory historical notes it says: > [@](#): > > Rivets were the principal fasteners in the early days of iron and steel, but occasionally bolts of mild steel were used in structures. It had long been known that hot-driven rivets generally produced clamping forces. However, the axial force was not controlled and varied substantially. Therefore, it could not be evaluated for design. > > Batho and Bateman were the first to suggest that high-strength bolts could be used to assemble steel structures. In 1934 they reported to the Steel Structures Committee of Scientific and Industrial Research of Great Britain that bolts could be tightened enough to prevent slip in structural joints. It was concluded that bolts with a minimum yield strength of 54 ksi could be tightened sufficiently to give an adequate margin of safety against slippage of the connected parts. Based on tests performed at the University of Illinois, Wilson and Thomas reported in 1938: > _The fatigue strength of high-strength bolts appreciably smaller than the holes in the plates was as great as that of well driven rivets if the nuts were screwed up to give a high tension in the bolt._ > > Little more was done about high-strength bolting until 1947 when the Research Council on Riveted and Bolted Structural Joints (RCRBSJ) was formed. The purpose of the council, known now as the Research Council on Structural Connections (RCSC), was as follows: > > _To carry on investigations as may seem necessary to determine the suitability of various types of joints used in structural frames._ > > The council sponsored studies on high-strength bolts and rivets and their use in structural connections. The realization that bolts could be extremely useful in the maintenance of bridges helped support developmental work at this early stage. The use of high-strength steel bolts as permanent fasteners has become general since the formation of the RCRBSJ. Prior to that time heat-treated carbon bolts were only used for fitting-up purposes and for carrying the loads during erection. The bolts were tightened to pull the plies of joint material together, but no attempt was made to attain a precise amount of clamping force. > The American Society for Testing and Materials (ASTM) in conjunction with the RCRBSJ prepared a tentative specification for the materials for high-strength bolts, a specification which was first approved in 1949. Using the results of research, the RCRBSJ prepared and issued its first specification for structural joints using high-strength bolts in January 1951. This specification permitted the rivet to be replaced by a bolt on a one-to-one basis. > > In the early 1950s, the installation procedures, the slip resistance of joints having different surface treatments, and the behavior of joints under repeated loadings were studied. Outside of the United States high-strength bolts also attracted much attention. Sufficient experience was gained in the laboratory and in bridge construction to enable the German Committee for Structural Steelwork (GCSS) to issue a preliminary code of practice (1956). In Great Britain, the general practice was similar to practice and specifications in the United States. The British Standards Institution issued a British Standard (BS) 3139 dealing with bolt material in 1959. In 1960, BS 3294 was issued to establish the design procedure and field practice. > > Research developments led to several editions of the RCRBSJ specifications. Allowable stresses were increased, tightening procedures were modified, and new developments such as the use of A490 alloy steel bolts, galvanized joints and bolts, and slotted holes were incorporated. The first edition of the Guide to Design Types and Mechanical Properties of Structural Fasteners Criteria for Bolted and Riveted Connections, sponsored by the council and published in 1974, provided a valuable summary of connection and connector behavior for designers and specification writers alike. The presentation of the strength and deformation statements in their most fundamental and basic forms made the guide directly useful for those using the limit states design formats that emerged in the late 1970s. ---
**Author:** ![brossa](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/brossa/32/3040_2.png) [@brossa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brossa)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2021, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hot-riveting-by-hand-how-common-today/955549/9 "2021-12-09T01:55:03Z")
A handful of years ago, a bridge just down the river was rehabbed, and the process involved hot riveting. The riveting team put on a public demonstration using some sample iron, and I got to form a rivet head with the pneumatic riveter. They were doing this to preserve the historical nature of the bridge, though. ---
**Author:** ![Marvin\_the\_Martian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/marvin_the_martian/32/2898_2.png) [@Marvin\_the\_Martian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marvin_the_Martian)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2021, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hot-riveting-by-hand-how-common-today/955549/10 "2021-12-09T02:13:57Z")
> [@brossa](#): > > They were doing this to preserve the historical nature of the bridge, though. I would assume that hot rivets would also be used in any repairs to the Eiffel Tower for similar historical and aesthetic reasons. ---
**Author:** ![Snipe70e](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/51bf81/32.png) [@Snipe70e](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snipe70e)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2021, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hot-riveting-by-hand-how-common-today/955549/11 "2021-12-09T05:11:28Z")
I had a teacher at the Maritime Academy who was on a liberty Ship that Cracked and started to split in two. ---
**Author:** ![bob\_2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bob_2/32/3341_2.png) [@bob\_2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bob_2)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2021, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hot-riveting-by-hand-how-common-today/955549/12 "2021-12-09T13:20:56Z")
My brother was on a bulk ore carrier that had a split on the deck that opened and closed with the waves. They were taking iron ore to Germany and were not allowed to sail up the River Ems to the POrt at Emden until repairs were carried out. He didn’t see what they did as he went on leave while they were anchored off shore. ---
**Author:** ![jjakucyk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/3d9bf3/32.png) [@jjakucyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjakucyk)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2021, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hot-riveting-by-hand-how-common-today/955549/13 "2021-12-09T14:07:11Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > Tall buildings aren’t steel girder construction at all now, are they? They are made of reinforced concrete. So the entire question is mute. Moot, but no it’s not. All steel (or mostly steel, usually the floors are still poured concrete over metal pans) skyscrapers can be more expensive in material than reinforced concrete, but the columns take up less space and they can be built faster depending on the contractors available. They’re also better suited for high-wind and seismic environments. Choosing which way to go is a delicate balance of real-time material and labor costs, contractor availability, delivery scheduling, and leasable floor plate geometries. It’s definitely not a case of “we don’t do this anymore”. Regarding rivets, I wonder if the noise associated with their installation is another factor in their demise. While construction in general is never quiet, the hum of a concrete pumper, welding, and tightening of bolts is a lot less offensive than the relentless hammering of multiple welding crews. About the only worse thing I can think of that’s still done is pile driving. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2021, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hot-riveting-by-hand-how-common-today/955549/14 "2021-12-09T14:36:31Z")
Interesting and yeah moot, noticed my mistake after editing period over. ---
**Author:** ![gotpasswords](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c57346/32.png) [@gotpasswords](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gotpasswords)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2021, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hot-riveting-by-hand-how-common-today/955549/15 "2021-12-15T23:35:45Z")
> [@Snipe70e](#): > > But a tempered bolt is a tempered bolt no matter which box they came from. That is unless they came from China, then it is a hopping game. And then there’s hydrogen embrittlement, which doesn’t care what continent the parts came from. Two “headliner” cases of it are the SF-Oakland Bay Bridge, and the Cheesegrater building in London. ---
**Author:** ![mixdenny](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mixdenny/32/2962_2.png) [@mixdenny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mixdenny)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2021, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hot-riveting-by-hand-how-common-today/955549/16 "2021-12-16T20:31:25Z")
> [@jjakucyk](#): > > Regarding rivets, I wonder if the noise associated with their installation is another factor in their demise. A method was developed (WWII?) to set rivets with giant “pliers” but I can’t come up with a photos I have seen before. They used hydraulic cylinders to squeeze the rivets tight and could reach far away from the edge of a plate - 10 or 15 feet I guess. ---
**Author:** ![Bonum\_Legatum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bonum_legatum/32/6183_2.png) [@Bonum\_Legatum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bonum_Legatum)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2021, 11:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hot-riveting-by-hand-how-common-today/955549/17 "2021-12-17T11:44:18Z")
> [@mixdenny](#): > > A method was developed (WWII?) to set rivets with giant “pliers” Sounds like a reinvention of the “mobile hydraulic riveter”: > **[Ralph Hart Tweddell](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ralph_Hart_Tweddell)** > > Ralph Hart Tweddell (25 May 1843 – 3 September 1895) was a British mechanical engineer, known particularly for inventing the portable hydraulic riveter, which greatly facilitated the construction of boilers, bridges and ships. > Tweddell was born in South Shields in 1843. His father, Marshall Tweddell, was a shipowner. He was educated at Cheltenham College, with the intention of entering the army. However, more interested in engineering, he was apprenticed to R and W Hawthorn, a locomotive manu... > **[The portable hydraulic riveter invented by Ralph Hart Tweddell facilitated...](https://www.alamy.com/the-portable-hydraulic-riveter-invented-by-ralph-hart-tweddell-facilitated-greatly-the-construction-of-boilers-bridges-and-ships-19th-century-engraving-image398725407.html)** > > Download this stock image: The portable hydraulic riveter invented by Ralph Hart Tweddell facilitated greatly the construction of boilers, bridges and ships, 19th century engraving - 2E4KE93 from Alamy's library of millions of high resolution stock...