# Hot Stove for Baseball talk **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Tags:** baseball-mlb\ **Created:** [November 9, 2006, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hot-stove-for-baseball-talk/379768 "2006-11-09T21:43:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e480ec/32.png) [@Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Least_Original_User_Name_Ever)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2006, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hot-stove-for-baseball-talk/379768/161 "2006-12-02T05:06:42Z")
[QUOTE=What Exit?] Yeah, just like the Redwings always did. šŸ˜ƒ [/QUOTE] They have a cap now. They have to show restraint. Not the Yankees. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2006, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hot-stove-for-baseball-talk/379768/162 "2006-12-02T05:13:40Z")
[QUOTE=Least Original User Name Ever] They have a cap now. They have to show restraint. Not the Yankees. [/QUOTE] What, did I cut too close too home on that one? šŸ˜‰ The Yanks spend ridiculous amounts and the spending has not been wise. Probably from the time they inked the Giambi deal. The money was still high in the nineties, just not anywhere near as high and spent wisely. It also produced many World Series Rings. You should be happy the Yanks started spending like drunken sailors in 2001. The team has not won a ring since then and they have been paying out a lot of luxury tax to help the bottom feeders. The Yanks probably paid most of the Marlins payroll this year. Jim ---
**Author:** ![Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e480ec/32.png) [@Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Least_Original_User_Name_Ever)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2006, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hot-stove-for-baseball-talk/379768/163 "2006-12-02T05:26:27Z")
Heh. Nah, you didnā€™t hit too close to home. The Wings and hockey as a whole really needed a salary cap. Sad thing is, itā€™s a completely different game. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2006, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hot-stove-for-baseball-talk/379768/164 "2006-12-02T05:32:23Z")
[QUOTE=Least Original User Name Ever] Heh. Nah, you didnā€™t hit too close to home. The Wings and hockey as a whole really needed a salary cap. Sad thing is, itā€™s a completely different game. [/QUOTE] Honestly, the Strike and the Dolan family lost hockey for me. I would not object to a hard cap in baseball. There is no need for the Yanks to spend as crazy as they have the last few years. Like the Rangers and the Redwings, they need to be saved from themselves. Of course, hand in hand with a hard-cap, I would like to see a hard floor. Without a lot of thought, letā€™s say MLB goes with $40 million as the minimum to stay in the majors and $120 million as the max. Maybe phase it in over three years to allow the Yanks & Sox to adjust down without being crippled. Jim ---
**Author:** ![Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e480ec/32.png) [@Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Least_Original_User_Name_Ever)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2006, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hot-stove-for-baseball-talk/379768/165 "2006-12-02T05:35:08Z")
Well, theyā€™d HAVE to phase it in slowly. If they did it like hockey, the Yanks and Sox would be piiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiissed. Itā€™s virtually impossible because of their clout. In any case, I donā€™t care NEARLY as much for the floor as I do the ceiling. I do understand that a floor would be made a necessity by the rich owners and whatever luxury taxes theyā€™d have to pay. Isnā€™t that nuts? The Yanks and Sox would have to pare nearly a hundred million per to fit under your cap. Thatā€™s scary. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2006, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hot-stove-for-baseball-talk/379768/166 "2006-12-02T05:39:27Z")
[QUOTE=Least Original User Name Ever] Isnā€™t that nuts? The Yanks and Sox would have to pare nearly a hundred million per to fit under your cap. Thatā€™s scary. [/QUOTE] Yep and I am a Yankee fan suggesting it. BTW: It is not so much the Yanks and Sox that would be pissed as the Players Union that loves the Yanks and the Sox that will be truly pissed. You need the floor to appease them. Personally I cannot stand filthy rich owners profiting by pocketing the money from the teams that are spending to win. It is extremely un-American. Jim ---
**Author:** ![Walter\_Windchill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/eb8c5e/32.png) [@Walter\_Windchill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walter_Windchill)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2006, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hot-stove-for-baseball-talk/379768/167 "2006-12-02T05:49:02Z")
The ā€œspend to win,ā€ thing is a bit glib. Some teams just flat-out have more revenue to spend. George Steinbrenner doesnā€™t have a radically different attitude about winning; he has more money from his team. I assure you he still turns a profit. Other owners struggle to turn a profit. Revenue sharing helps them do so. Revenue sharing isnā€™t such a bad thing. A salary cap would be better, but as Jim says, the players union wonā€™t let it happen. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2006, 5:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hot-stove-for-baseball-talk/379768/168 "2006-12-02T05:54:44Z")
[QUOTE=Walter Windchill] The ā€œspend to win,ā€ thing is a bit glib. Some teams just flat-out have more revenue to spend. George Steinbrenner doesnā€™t have a radically different attitude about winning; he has more money from his team. I assure you he still turns a profit. Other owners struggle to turn a profit. Revenue sharing helps them do so. Revenue sharing isnā€™t such a bad thing. A salary cap would be better, but as Jim says, the players union wonā€™t let it happen. [/QUOTE] I am okay with sharing some revenue. I am not okay with KC and the Marlins and possibly other teams pocketing revenue sharing money instead of investing in the team. You are correct, I did use the phrase ā€œspend to winā€ glibly. Jim ---
**Author:** ![Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e480ec/32.png) [@Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Least_Original_User_Name_Ever)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2006, 5:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hot-stove-for-baseball-talk/379768/169 "2006-12-02T05:54:50Z")
I disagree. I think the Yanks and Sox would be mega pissed. This takes away their prestige and their power. A leveling of the playing field means that the GMs and scouts and presidents will get their turn to shine. Billy Beane would be more than prepared for such a move. Would Brian Cashman? Theo Epstein? Iā€™m with you on the salary floor, by the way. ---
**Author:** ![Kiros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/439d5e/32.png) [@Kiros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kiros)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2006, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hot-stove-for-baseball-talk/379768/170 "2006-12-02T17:42:10Z")
[QUOTE=Least Original User Name Ever] Isnā€™t that nuts? The Yanks and Sox would have to pare nearly a hundred million per to fit under your cap. Thatā€™s scary. [/QUOTE] However insane the Sox may have been/may continue to be this winter - and remember, due to a rules loophole, the Matsusaka bid doesnā€™t count towards the cap - you should be kind of careful when you say this. Red Sox payrolls since 2001: 2006 $ 120,099,824 2005 $ 123,505,125 2004 $ 127,298,500 2003 $ 99,946,500 2002 $ 108,366,060 2001 $ 109,675,833 Yankee payrolls since 2001: 2006 $ 194,663,079 2005 $ 208,306,817 2004 $ 184,193,950 2003 $ 152,749,814 2002 $ 125,928,583 2001 $ 112,287,143 (numbers courtesy [usatoday.com](http://asp.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/salaries/default.aspx) ) Two things should be noted here. First, it was about 2002 or 2003 when things got REAL crazy for the Yankees - as **What Exit?** noted, it was really the Giambi signing that started it. Second, though the Red Sox have generally been the second-highest payroll team in the last year or threeā€¦ well, the difference in the payrolls between second-highest and highest would pay for a third of the MLB teams, and a $120 million hard cap would barely affect the Sox at all (or anyone other than NYY, for that matter). Just a little ignorance-fighting. For 2007, the Sox payroll will likely be either a bit higher than it was last year, or similar, depending on if Manny is traded or not. Ownership has been extremely conscious of the luxury tax threshold recentlyā€¦ but in 2007, it rises to $148 million (from $136.5 million last year, and ~$120 million in 2005). Even if the Sox keep Manny, sign both Drew and Lugo, and give Matsusaka near the high end of what Boras is asking for in the actual contract, they still wonā€™t break the $148 million. So the whole luxury tax thing is really pretty worthless other than as a Yankee Penalty. If you want to be spunky, set the minimum at $50 or $60 million and the max at $100 million. Thereā€™s no way in hell thatā€™ll happen though, for all sorts of reasons (not the least of which that the union would be against it and over half of the owners would end up being against it). random note: Pre-cancelled-season, I was a HUGE hockey fan - probably third on my Sports Hierarchy, after the NFL and college basketball. Even WITH what Jeremy Jacobs has done to the Bruins. The combination of the lockout and the Joe Thornton trade totally killed the NHL for me for a good while. Iā€™m just starting to get back into it now - the combination of a competitive, fun-to-watch Bruins team and hockey in HDTV every night is, well, fun to watch. ---
**Author:** ![Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e480ec/32.png) [@Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Least_Original_User_Name_Ever)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2006, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hot-stove-for-baseball-talk/379768/171 "2006-12-02T17:54:14Z")
Iā€™m aware of each and every one of your points. $100 milloins was thrown out there as a bit of hyperbole. In any case, itā€™d be interesting to see how the landscape of the league would look with a salary structure. ---
**Author:** ![Kiros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/439d5e/32.png) [@Kiros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kiros)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2006, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hot-stove-for-baseball-talk/379768/172 "2006-12-02T19:18:33Z")
šŸ™‚ Just wanted to point that out. A lot of people categorize things as ā€œYanks and Soxā€, when itā€™s more like ā€œ1. Yanks; 2. Sox, Mets, Dodgers, 3-4 other teams depending on the year; 3. the teams that live in the Real World; 4. Florida Marlins circa 2006ā€. Iā€™d also love to see things work with a more strict salary base - the NFL IS my favorite league, after all. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2006, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hot-stove-for-baseball-talk/379768/173 "2006-12-02T20:02:33Z")
[QUOTE=Kiros] šŸ™‚ Just wanted to point that out. A lot of people categorize things as ā€œYanks and Soxā€, when itā€™s more like ā€œ1. Yanks; 2. Sox, Mets, Dodgers, 3-4 other teams depending on the year; 3. the teams that live in the Real World; 4. Florida Marlins circa 2006ā€. Iā€™d also love to see things work with a more strict salary base - the NFL IS my favorite league, after all. [/QUOTE] I am not always happy with the NFL system. I am not sure parity makes for the most exciting game and of course the NFL has a very different economic system with most of the cash coming from monster national league negotiated TV deals and league pushed merchandise. Baseball money is much more regionally dependant. It really does strike me as anti-capitalist to take too much money from the successful clubs and give it to the weak sisters. Football also has a bigger problem with seasons being determine to a greater extent by injuries than Baseball or Hockey. I still lean towards eliminating from 2-4 baseball teams. I know this is unpopular, but I hate the diluted talent pool and I think there are certain owners that should not be owners. (I am looking at you David Glass, Peter Angelos & Jeffrey Loria) Jim ---
**Author:** ![Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e480ec/32.png) [@Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Least_Original_User_Name_Ever)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2006, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hot-stove-for-baseball-talk/379768/174 "2006-12-02T20:31:00Z")
I disagree. The talent pool is just fine. Personally, Iā€™d like fewer teams, but thereā€™s no clean way to do so. Also, a person buys a team as an investment or hobby or passion. That is all. They can even not know what the sport is, just so long as they put the people in place that know whatā€™s going on. A hard salary cap would force your SuperFriends (Glass, Angelos, and Loria) to do something positive and proactive because one of their biggest ixcuses would be raped from them. ---
**Author:** ![Not\_A\_Tame\_Lion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e36b37/32.png) [@Not\_A\_Tame\_Lion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Not_A_Tame_Lion)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2006, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hot-stove-for-baseball-talk/379768/175 "2006-12-04T18:11:30Z")
[QUOTE=What Exit?] My review on **Hideki Okajima** is from multiple print reports. I estimated that this years Lefty Reliever market was worthless and Hideki would come cheap enough to allow for a mistake to be made. The salary the Red Sox paid is write off money for the Yanks & Red Sox. (Sorry LOUNE) [/quote] Fair enough, and logical as far as it goes. I still donā€™t think most of us can be anything close to informed about pitchers from the Far East, unless theyā€™ve done some pitching here. Of course, even being informed doesnā€™t always help: > [@](#): > > I have no faith in the big name expensive auction pitchers being worth their money. Neither the Red Sox or the Yankees. On the other hand Philly signed Eaton to a 3 year deal worth $24 million. I have seen him pitch. I know he is not worth it. šŸ˜‰ > > Jim Words that will probably be all too true. The Phillies always find a way to mess it up, donā€™t they? ---
**Author:** ![brianjedi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3be4f8/32.png) [@brianjedi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brianjedi)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2006, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hot-stove-for-baseball-talk/379768/176 "2006-12-04T22:48:00Z")
The Atlanta Braves signed what is sure to be the missing piece: Tanyon Sturtze, for $750,000 base salary. I have to wonder why anyone would pay him that much. ---
**Author:** ![brianjedi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3be4f8/32.png) [@brianjedi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brianjedi)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2006, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hot-stove-for-baseball-talk/379768/177 "2006-12-04T22:52:49Z")
Meanwhile, in much better news: The St. Louis Cardinals have signed 2005 Cy Young Award winner Chris Carpenter to an extension through 2011, with a club option for 2012. The extension will be worth $65 million over the next five years. Iā€™d say this is going to be the prelude to adding another big-name starter. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2006, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hot-stove-for-baseball-talk/379768/178 "2006-12-06T14:16:32Z")
[Drew deal is done at five years for $70 million and the Red Sox finished the night with a flourish by signing Julio Lugo to play shortstop for $36 million over four years](http://www.sportsline.com/mlb/story/9852261) So J.D. Drew & Julio get very nice paydays. Drew is a good money ball player with a great OBA, but he also appears to be injury prone. This appears to be a great year to be a free agent. Two more player that received higher contracts than I expected by a good amount. Rumors are that the Yanks are prepared to offer Andy Pettitte $15m if he comes back. I am scratching my head on this one two. Andy is one of my favorite players, but in talking about bringing him back, I thought he could be had for 6-8 million and a good incentive package. [Maddux leaving Dodgers for one-year deal with Padres](http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2687700) for $10 million and options for 2008 based on Innings pitched. Jim ---
**Author:** ![Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e480ec/32.png) [@Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Least_Original_User_Name_Ever)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2006, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hot-stove-for-baseball-talk/379768/179 "2006-12-06T14:24:35Z")
Apparently, thereā€™s something going on behind the scenes with Pettite. Heā€™s a lefty, has playoff experience, and can still pitch at a high level. Youā€™d think heā€™d be MORE in demand. I didnā€™t see Maddux leaving, though. I thought heā€™d re-sign with the Dodgers, with Dodger Stadium being a pitcher-friendly park (not that Petco isnā€™t, butā€¦). ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2006, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hot-stove-for-baseball-talk/379768/180 "2006-12-06T14:34:00Z")
[QUOTE=Least Original User Name Ever] Apparently, thereā€™s something going on behind the scenes with Pettite. Heā€™s a lefty, has playoff experience, and can still pitch at a high level. Youā€™d think heā€™d be MORE in demand. I didnā€™t see Maddux leaving, though. I thought heā€™d re-sign with the Dodgers, with Dodger Stadium being a pitcher-friendly park (not that Petco isnā€™t, butā€¦). [/QUOTE] Andy Pettitte is leaning towards retirement. He has some nagging arm injuries and had pretty much ruled out every team except Yanks & Houston. There were some indications that Houston did not want him back, but the picture has changed recently. Jim [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hot-stove-for-baseball-talk/379768.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hot-stove-for-baseball-talk/379768.md?page=10)