# Hotel of Heroes mafia **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [January 14, 2011, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hotel-of-heroes-mafia/567544 "2011-01-14T01:30:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![special\_ed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@special\_ed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/special_ed)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2011, 8:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hotel-of-heroes-mafia/567544/201 "2011-01-16T08:22:09Z")
no, really, I’m sorry if it hurt. I tried to do it gently ---
**Author:** ![special\_ed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@special\_ed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/special_ed)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2011, 8:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hotel-of-heroes-mafia/567544/202 "2011-01-16T08:23:13Z")
but please, do forgive me. I’m jsut overly sensitive becuase you nailed me as an internet tough guy. ---
**Author:** ![ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e9bcb4/32.png) [@ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2011, 8:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hotel-of-heroes-mafia/567544/203 "2011-01-16T08:26:53Z")
I wouldn’t take it personally or literally. Language can get colorful in these games. Bitchslapping, fish-slapping, butt-peeing, giving people the occasional squeeeeze of the family potatoes…all in good fun. ---
**Author:** ![Asympotically\_fat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e47c2d/32.png) [@Asympotically\_fat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Asympotically_fat)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2011, 10:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hotel-of-heroes-mafia/567544/204 "2011-01-16T10:00:47Z")
I’m not entirely dissuaded from my plan (that is the limited 2.0 verson without the actual name claim). I think you have to look at this way I know that I’m town and know my character is a named for a character who is a goodie two-shoes so I very strongly suspect that the twon characters are named for ‘good guys’ and the scum for ‘bad guys’ as that would make sense witht he way the game has been set up. That said may be there’s no point in revealing even the limited amont I have proposed. If all the town players are sitting there with equally ‘good’ characters then perhaps they will also surmise what I have surmised. So in short I’m a bit dubious of the arguments that aren’t assuming all town characters are good. The issue of names is defintely not a dead one to me, but as a name claim at this stage doesn’t seem to be profitable to town and my allefgiance claim doesn’t have enough support to be effective I’m not going to keep pushing it. ---
**Author:** ![ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e9bcb4/32.png) [@ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2011, 10:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hotel-of-heroes-mafia/567544/205 "2011-01-16T10:37:57Z")
No, you don’t have to look at it that way. What you can do is consider it a sample size of one: your own (alleged) role which you have read. Which is a shitty sample size to use according to what spare strands of recollection are left from taking statistics class way back in the day. If a Townie dies and is flips as a goodie-two-shoes, you’ll have a sample size of two. But all it takes is one scum/third party with a good guy name who is given sufficient free passes just because of that, and the Town can potentially kiss their chances of winning goodbye. There are plenty of precedents of past games where cannon/color was used so as to specifically fuck town over (and/or benefit non-town factions) for just that sort of assumption. ---
**Author:** ![peekercpa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8baadc/32.png) [@peekercpa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/peekercpa)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2011, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hotel-of-heroes-mafia/567544/206 "2011-01-16T14:28:47Z")
> [@Suburban\_Plankton](#): > > I don’t think so…I start every game with the default assumption that each player is Town. Where I differ from what Cookies said is that for me that assumption doesn’t stay “until proven guilty or otherwise”, but rather “until I have sufficient evidence to the contrary” (though I suspect this may be what Cookies actually meant). \ yaknow this is an interesting statement. because i start off every game assuming that everyone else is scum or some sort of malcontent that wants to kill me. i guess that’s why baskin robbins makes 31 flavors. different strokes for different folks. i mean i am not saying that **burby** is wrong just that it’s fascinating how differently people approach this endeavor. ---
**Author:** ![peekercpa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8baadc/32.png) [@peekercpa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/peekercpa)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2011, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hotel-of-heroes-mafia/567544/207 "2011-01-16T14:49:29Z")
> [@ushimitsudoki](#): > > special ed, > > What the fuck is your problem? You’d “bitch slap” me? > > You sound like the typical internet tough guy nerd - you don’t know me and I don’t know you, so I suggest you back the fuck down from your cockrocket if you can’t interact socially with some common goddamn decency. hey, **sushi** take a chill pill. and i know you are new so some of the “nuances” of this game will be first experiences to you. this is a game of lying and name calling. nothing is at all personal outside of the context of this game. to be bitchslapped by **ed** so early in your mafia career should be worn as a badge of fucking honor. i think it took two games for him to finally call me an idiot. **ed** has always hated unprovoked niller claims as did i at one time. but i have kind have come around to the conclusion that **cookies** has. mainly, meh. and regarding the “unknown pool” (or whatever you called it) i would add. as the game progresses certain claims and assumptions will be somewhat provable. therefore folks alignment and power or lack thereof will essentially be established. as the group of folks shrink that are not “confirmed” scum start losing places to hide. kind of winnowing down the potential lynch candidates. so at the beginning of the game you want a large unknown pool so scum can’t target town powers. towards mid or end game you want a small unknown pool so that lynch candidates are more likely scum just by sheer force of numbers. so i would close with a question for the group. for those of you that think **idle** doing his first post niller claim is somehow anti town what conclusion would you make regarding **sushi**? i mean it’s an unprovoked niller claim. does the fact he waited until later than his first one or two posts give him skating room? if so, why? ---
**Author:** ![peekercpa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8baadc/32.png) [@peekercpa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/peekercpa)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2011, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hotel-of-heroes-mafia/567544/208 "2011-01-16T15:14:27Z")
and **cookies** regarding “lynch all liars” i think i have softened over the years regarding this policy. if we were to go the route of all just claiming niller at the get go (to get that beast off the plate) then i certainly would not lynch a subsequent claiming town power role because they “lied”. however, absent the above example, if you lie you durn sure better have a good and plausible reason for it or you swing. and good and plausible is a very high threshhold in my world. ---
**Author:** ![Asympotically\_fat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e47c2d/32.png) [@Asympotically\_fat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Asympotically_fat)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2011, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hotel-of-heroes-mafia/567544/209 "2011-01-16T15:15:48Z")
> [@ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies](#): > > No, you don’t have to look at it that way. What you can do is consider it a sample size of one: your own (alleged) role which you have read. Which is a shitty sample size to use according to what spare strands of recollection are left from taking statistics class way back in the day. > > If a Townie dies and is flips as a goodie-two-shoes, you’ll have a sample size of two. But all it takes is one scum/third party with a good guy name who is given sufficient free passes just because of that, and the Town can potentially kiss their chances of winning goodbye. > > There are plenty of precedents of past games where cannon/color was used so as to specifically fuck town over (and/or benefit non-town factions) for just that sort of assumption. It’s not that simple, I’m not just basing what I have said on the merely correlation between my own named character and my own allegiance, rather what I would expect. Okay I understand that expectations of this type have been delibratey confounded in the past, but that’s why I am asking people to do a claim that should be a good test of what I suspect. I don’t see how revealing this information could possibly benefit the scum as simply claiming your character is known as a goody is a very weak claim and I certainly wouldn’t give someone a free pass because of it. It does mean if there are no cover roles scum would have to make up a name if forced to role claim because they are in danger of being lynched. I do not see this purely as a matter of statistics. Anyway like I said it’s still an issue for me, but I don’t see much point in pushing it right now. ---
**Author:** ![Asympotically\_fat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e47c2d/32.png) [@Asympotically\_fat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Asympotically_fat)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2011, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hotel-of-heroes-mafia/567544/210 "2011-01-16T15:19:15Z")
> [@peekercpa](#): > > and **cookies** regarding “lynch all liars” i think i have softened over the years regarding this policy. if we were to go the route of all just claiming niller at the get go (to get that beast off the plate) then i certainly would not lynch a subsequent claiming town power role because they “lied”. > > however, absent the above example, if you lie you durn sure better have a good and plausible reason for it or you swing. and good and plausible is a very high threshhold in my world. Neither would I, clealry it’s in the interest of the twon for those with power roles to lie about them. ---
**Author:** ![Idle\_Thoughts](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/838e76/32.png) [@Idle\_Thoughts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Idle_Thoughts)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2011, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hotel-of-heroes-mafia/567544/211 "2011-01-16T15:20:00Z")
No worries, **ushimitsudoki** , **Ed** didn’t mean it seriously. As others have said, you definitely need a thick skin in this game. You can’t get offended if someone outright says you’re lying. For (another) example, **IF I WERE TO START TALKING TO YOU LIKE THIS AND CONTINUED TO DO IT FOR THE MAJORITY OF THE POST, SAYING YOU WERE A BALD-FACED LIAR WHO LIED SO MUCH YOU WOULDN’T EVEN KNOW IF YOU WERE LYING ANYMORE AND COULD BE LYING ABOUT THAT** , you shouldn’t take offense, that’s just my thing (typing in big caps). 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Meeko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Meeko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meeko)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2011, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hotel-of-heroes-mafia/567544/212 "2011-01-16T16:01:15Z")
> [@special\_ed](#): > > hehehe Ed, if you ever want to go back to fighting with me… 😃 I mean, wow, seems to me that you just entered a new level of … discussion -with someone other than Meeko, for once. ---
**Author:** ![One\_And\_Only\_Wanderers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/838e76/32.png) [@One\_And\_Only\_Wanderers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/One_And_Only_Wanderers)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2011, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hotel-of-heroes-mafia/567544/213 "2011-01-16T16:04:44Z")
> [@Suburban\_Plankton](#): > > I’ll echo what I said earlier, I am against any sort of a mass claim. Why? A couple reasons: > > 1. I think it’s contrary to the ‘spirit of the game’. I think enough has been said on this subject in the past that I’m not going to elaborate unless someone wants me to. > > 2. The Mod has told us it’s a waste of time > > Now, \*\*Mahaloth \*\*might be wrong…maybe the game \*is \*breakable. But knowing at least some of his history, I’m willing to bet he’s right, and if he’s wrong, and the game is breakable, I’d really prefer not to break it. > > In my opinion, the only reason to do a name claim is so that we can try to divine something from the names (or from the ‘goodness/badness’ of the name, or the canon from which it comes, or anything else). And if that information actually tells us anything, then the game is most certainly ‘breakable’. I don’t think Mahaloth would be that careless, so there is no point to such a claim. The fact that people will take such information and try to find patterns in it, even though we know no such patterns exist, is another reason not to do it. It will become a distraction, both my good-meaning Townies who can’t stop analyzing, and by bad-meaning Scum who will try to use the information to sow confusion. > > A question for those of you who have considerably more Mafia experience than I: > > How many times have you seen a ‘successful’ mass claim early in the game? Define ‘successful’ as either ‘one in which everyone actually participated’, or as ‘one which actually benefited town’…or both. This. I don’t see the point of a mass name claim at this point. A mass full claim later in the game when we have actions to assign to people, yeah. When the game mod outright claims his game is unbreakable, you can be sure that a name claim is not going to provide anything for us to go on. ---
**Author:** ![Meeko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Meeko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meeko)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2011, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hotel-of-heroes-mafia/567544/214 "2011-01-16T16:15:34Z")
> [@These are my own pants](#): > > I’m not entirely dissuaded from my plan (that is the limited 2.0 verson without the actual name claim). I think you have to look at this way I know that I’m town and know my character is a named for a character who is a goodie two-shoes so I very strongly suspect that the twon characters are named for ‘good guys’ and the scum for ‘bad guys’ as that would make sense witht he way the game has been set up. > [@Mahaloth](#): > > 1. Honestly, this has more to do with games around here lately. Listen, discuss whatever you want, but I have made my policy on game design quite clear. **The game is not, to my knowledge, breakable.** It is not breakable by analyzing your PM and trying to figure out how many letters/vowels, or whatever are in them. In my experience, this kind of focus is not a great idea. > > That kind of talk is discouraging to newer players, too, so I’d prefer not to see it. > > Do with it what you will. I won’t prevent any such talk. More of a request and suggestion instead of a rule. Both Snipped, Bolding added to Maha’s. **Pants: How do you reconcile your comment above to Maha’s ?** In LOST, I claimed Sawyer early on. Sawyer was a Town aligned power role. Maha understood what I did, [perhaps more than I did], and worked to fix the problem. It so happened, that his fix confirmed my role. However, it was a concession to fix the gambit similar to one you mention. This included giving Dummy PMs to the scum. I don’t think names were … laundered [For lack of better terms] until later games. But we have had this pop up before, and I highly doubt it is going to rear its head again. As I understand it, Maha more or less vowed to never have that happen again. \*\* I will also point out, that Maha already gave a sample PM. \*\* All of that to say : I think that breaking this game, by any method possible, is “” right out “” . ---
**Author:** ![Asympotically\_fat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e47c2d/32.png) [@Asympotically\_fat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Asympotically_fat)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2011, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hotel-of-heroes-mafia/567544/215 "2011-01-16T16:50:53Z")
> [@Meeko](#): > > Both Snipped, Bolding added to Maha’s. > **Pants: How do you reconcile your comment above to Maha’s ?** \ I think I mentioned this earlier, but yes undoubtedly it gives me pause for thought. Like I said I’ve not been dissuaded enitrely from my earlier opinions, but I’m not pushing them any more. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2011, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hotel-of-heroes-mafia/567544/216 "2011-01-16T17:33:03Z")
On the question of default assumptions for people, I think that if you’re going to have a default assumption, it’s better to default to Town, for two reasons: First, there are more Town than Scum in the game, so just by the numbers, any given randomly-selected player really is probably a Townie. Second, the way we express that we think someone is Scum is ultimately that we lynch them, and we only lynch one person per Day, while we leave N-1 alive. That said, though, I prefer not to assume on that count either way, and just think of every player as someone who may be (and probably is, in the early game) Town, but who might also be Scum. On lynch all liars, there are of course exceptions, but the exceptions are so rare that it’s not even worth listing them: On the very rare occasion where an exception does come up, it can be handled on a case-by-case basis. I do _not_ give Town power roles a blanket pass for lying about their role: I expect a Town power role to keep es mouth shut about what e is until the appropriate time comes to claim. And on shrinking the unknown pool, it is of course essential in the late game, and that’s basically how most games are won, but it’s not really a very meaningful strategy on Day 1 when the unknown pool consists of the entire set of players. Finally, **Mahaloth** has said that this game is unbreakable, and I believe him. That does not, however, imply that a mass claim of some sort wouldn’t be helpful at all, just that it wouldn’t help so much that it’d break the game. There are always many things we can do that would help a little, and proper game balance assumes that we’ll be doing those things, rather than just rejecting them out of hand because they might be “broken”. ---
**Author:** ![Meeko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Meeko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meeko)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2011, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hotel-of-heroes-mafia/567544/217 "2011-01-16T17:38:16Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > That said, though, I prefer not to assume on that count either way, and just think of every player as someone who may be (and probably is, in the early game) Town, but who might also be Scum. \*\*Are you saying you would lynch Schrodinger’s Cat ? \*\* 😃 ---
**Author:** ![special\_ed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@special\_ed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/special_ed)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2011, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hotel-of-heroes-mafia/567544/218 "2011-01-16T17:57:35Z")
> [@Meeko](#): > > Ed, if you ever want to go back to fighting with me… > 😃 > > I mean, wow, seems to me that you just entered a new level of … discussion -with someone other than Meeko, for once. I’m having discussions with other people. Please forgive me for that transgression. ---
**Author:** ![Meeko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Meeko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meeko)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2011, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hotel-of-heroes-mafia/567544/219 "2011-01-16T19:44:42Z")
> [@special\_ed](#): > > I’m having discussions with other people. Please forgive me for that transgression. Dude. Lighten up man, was just joking around. I’m glad you’ve made new friends. HEH. ---
**Author:** ![Meeko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Meeko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meeko)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2011, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hotel-of-heroes-mafia/567544/220 "2011-01-16T19:48:44Z")
\*\*How many rookies do we have this game? \*\* **For the non-rookies** : Remember way back … all the way back… to your first game. Were you scum? I’m just wondering how hard it is for a rookie scum to play this game, or if it would be a wash in comparison to rookie town. I mean, there was conversation earlier about playing the noobie card too easily. How much of that is a false positive, and how much isn’t ? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hotel-of-heroes-mafia/567544.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hotel-of-heroes-mafia/567544.md?page=12)