# HouDopers! Read today's paper? Merry Christmas. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 23, 2002, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/houdopers-read-todays-paper-merry-christmas/144464 "2002-12-23T01:55:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![ataraxy22](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ataraxy22/32/307_2.png) [@ataraxy22](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ataraxy22)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2002, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/houdopers-read-todays-paper-merry-christmas/144464/21 "2002-12-24T18:21:16Z")
strong strong case in point for needing a licence to breed. ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2002, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/houdopers-read-todays-paper-merry-christmas/144464/22 "2002-12-24T20:05:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Blackeyes \* > \*\*I’ll link another one too: > > [Fred Phelps](http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/michael_haggerty/expose3.htm) \*\* I hate ol’ `God Hates Fags’ as much as the next guy, but this reads like a chain letter: > [@](#): > > PLEASE MAKE 10 COPIES OF THIS FILE AND GIVE THEM TO THOSE WHO FIND THE ACTIVITIES OF FRED PHELPS UNCONSCIONABLE. It’s generally Not Good when my warning bells are going full-bore and I haven’t even gotten to the meat of the argument yet. Moving on. This is a certainly oddball way to get something: > [@](#): > > The work product in question, “Addicted to Hate” chronicling the life and times of Fred Phelps, was attached to the lawsuit as Exhibit A making it, therefore, a public document. Learning of the suit, members of Topeka’s anti-Phelps underground delivered a certified copy of the lawsuit to a copy shop near the courthouse. I’m not judging it. It’s how the secret Scientology documents (the OTs) became public, after all, but why the video would be secret in the first place needs a little explanation. Summarizing the preface, the materials that were made public were very ant-Phelps and Freddy-boy was Not Happy they were in the open. The rest of the document appears to be a transcript of the `work product.’ It’s being made available the same way the OTs are being made available, as digital samizdat wrested from the legal system that alternately supports and prosecutes the authors’ enemy. The kind of stuff that’s always on the edge of being eradicated completely by the current Gonzo Copyright Brigade. An overtime dispute is a sideways method to have gotten this material, but something as big as the legal dispute mentioned in the summary would have made headlines beyond Kansas, or at least a sizeable splash in the home state. I’ve never heard of it. What I’m hinting at here is that I want a little more by way of independent corroboration. Third-party verification of basic facts would go a long way here. ---
**Author:** ![Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e19adc/32.png) [@Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2002, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/houdopers-read-todays-paper-merry-christmas/144464/23 "2002-12-25T01:16:05Z")
I only scrolled down 7 times or so, so I can’t figure out what the hell Fred Phelps has to do with this thread. Maybe it’s the rum. **Blackeyes** , care to enlighten me? ---
**Author:** ![Blackeyes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/f6c823/32.png) [@Blackeyes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blackeyes)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2002, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/houdopers-read-todays-paper-merry-christmas/144464/24 "2002-12-25T21:57:21Z")
He is a long time spouse and child abuser. ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2002, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/houdopers-read-todays-paper-merry-christmas/144464/25 "2002-12-26T19:20:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Blackeyes \* > \*\*He is a long time spouse and child abuser. \*\* Cite? [sub]You do understand that I want _external verification_ beyond the link you’ve already given us and your bald assertion.[/sub] ---
**Author:** ![Blackeyes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/f6c823/32.png) [@Blackeyes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blackeyes)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2002, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/houdopers-read-todays-paper-merry-christmas/144464/26 "2002-12-27T17:59:22Z")
On a thread on Fred Phelps and his congregation celebrating the anniversary of Matt Shephard’s death (October) a Doper linked and used that as the text. Take it with a grain of salt if you will, I just wanted to contribute a link. ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2002, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/houdopers-read-todays-paper-merry-christmas/144464/27 "2002-12-27T22:11:58Z")
**Blackeyes** , do you _ever_ intend to give me _any_ reason to believe you? ---
**Author:** ![Blackeyes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/f6c823/32.png) [@Blackeyes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blackeyes)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2002, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/houdopers-read-todays-paper-merry-christmas/144464/28 "2002-12-29T00:43:04Z")
What do you want from me? I started the thread, someone gave two links on the subject of child abuse, so I contributed another link. ---
**Author:** ![Enderw24](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ba9def/32.png) [@Enderw24](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enderw24)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2002, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/houdopers-read-todays-paper-merry-christmas/144464/29 "2002-12-29T04:28:46Z")
Morally, what the relatives did by completely ignoring the child is reprehensible. Legally, they probably didn’t break any laws. They have no duty to the welfare of the child. I’m absolutely astounded that the girl is doing as well as the article states. I can’t believe someone could adapt that quickly. ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Girl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7bcc69/32.png) [@Mighty\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Girl)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2002, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/houdopers-read-todays-paper-merry-christmas/144464/30 "2002-12-29T05:08:53Z")
The article doesn’t mention the biological father. I’d like to know if he had any knowledge of the girl’s existence, or if the mother even knew who the father was. Just curious. Anyhoo. Humanity just lost another 10 points in my Scale of Worthiness, now comfortably sitting behind amoebae and junkyard critters. :sad: ---
**Author:** ![AbbySthrnAccent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/eb9ed0/32.png) [@AbbySthrnAccent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AbbySthrnAccent)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2002, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/houdopers-read-todays-paper-merry-christmas/144464/31 "2002-12-29T05:25:48Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Enderw24 \* > \*\*Morally, what the relatives did by completely ignoring the child is reprehensible. Legally, they probably didn’t break any laws. They have no duty to the welfare of the child. > > \*\* Wrong. In Texas, if you’re aware of abuse you are legally bound to report it. If you don’t you can be prosecuted. ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2002, 6:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/houdopers-read-todays-paper-merry-christmas/144464/32 "2002-12-29T06:03:19Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Blackeyes \* > \*\*What do you want from me? I started the thread, someone gave two links on the subject of child abuse, so I contributed another link. \*\* I want more verification that Fred Phelps is a child abuser. ---
**Author:** ![Enderw24](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ba9def/32.png) [@Enderw24](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enderw24)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2002, 8:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/houdopers-read-todays-paper-merry-christmas/144464/33 "2002-12-29T08:18:57Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by AbbySthrnAccent \* > \*\*Wrong. In Texas, if you’re aware of abuse you are legally bound to report it. If you don’t you can be prosecuted. \*\* You’re right. Assuming the relatives knew of course, here is the relevant statute for Texas: § 261.109. Failure to Report; Penalty (a) A person commits an offense if the person has cause to believe that a child’s physical or mental health or welfare has been or may be adversely affected by abuse or neglect and knowingly fails to report as provided in this chapter. (b) An offense under this section is a Class B misdemeanor. ---
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2002, 8:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/houdopers-read-todays-paper-merry-christmas/144464/34 "2002-12-29T08:58:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Derleth \* > \*\*I want more verification that Fred Phelps is a child abuser. \*\* No verification as I have no intention of actually residing at the Westboro Baptist Church until I see it firsthand, but he was [accused](http://cjonline.com/webindepth/phelps/stories/080394_phelps07.shtml) by two of his sons. There does seem to be something to it. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2002, 11:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/houdopers-read-todays-paper-merry-christmas/144464/35 "2002-12-29T11:22:57Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Derleth \* > \*\*I want more verification that Fred Phelps is a child abuser. \*\* Yeah, he’s so loving and all. * * * > [@](#): > > Physical abuse was a big part of their lives, they said. “You didn’t ever walk away from a situation where you had upset him without being beat,” Nate Phelps said. > > They said they were told not to associated with other children. “We were given strict instruction not to play with any of the neighborhood kids,” Nate Phelps said. “If we were caught even standing across the fence from a neighborhood boy, that would cause us to get a beating.” > > At least two children were beaten because of their weight. Nate was one of them. “They just got beat all the time because they didn’t weigh what he wanted them to,” Mark Phelps said. > > … > > One of their sisters was beaten and had one of her arms held behind her back by her father, they said. “She would just be screaming blood curdling screams. He’d be telling her he was going to break her arm, and kill her if he had to, but she was going to do what she was supposed to do,” Mark Phelps said. > > Mark Phelps also said he used to beat his brothers and sisters if his father told him to. > > “Each person responds to abuse in a different fashion. I guess the way I respond to it was to so succumb to it that I was completely under the control of it,” Mark said. He remembers beating his brother Nate at the urging of their father. “My dad told me, ‘You beat him. I want to hear it or you’re both going to get beat.’ So I beat him. I beat Nate with a mattock. My brothers and sisters are entitled to hate me.” — an excerpt from the linked interview with Mark Phelps ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2002, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/houdopers-read-todays-paper-merry-christmas/144464/36 "2002-12-29T20:01:50Z")
The problem with the linked interview is that it’s from an avowed enemy and only cites one source itself: The anti-Phelps `work product’ mentioned in the preamble. Using that as my sole source for this information would be as bad as taking LaVey (or another Enemy of the Church) as my only source for Christian information. Operation Clambake shows the best way to do this, something also done by Project Nizkor: Multiple interviews over the same subjects and obsessive archival of all public information (from the OTs released as court records to independent news reports). Those groups do _not_ rely on one source, especially if it is admittedly biased. The Anti-Phelps site is a bad parody of that dedication. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2002, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/houdopers-read-todays-paper-merry-christmas/144464/37 "2002-12-29T20:28:44Z")
Um, the “avowed enemy” is the son who was abused, Mark Phelps. ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2002, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/houdopers-read-todays-paper-merry-christmas/144464/38 "2002-12-29T21:09:19Z")
Watch the movie _Mommie Dearest_. Read up on what actually happened. I still want verification. ---
**Author:** ![Blackeyes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/f6c823/32.png) [@Blackeyes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blackeyes)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2002, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/houdopers-read-todays-paper-merry-christmas/144464/39 "2002-12-29T21:48:24Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mighty\_Girl \* > \*\*The article doesn’t mention the biological father. I’d like to know if he had any knowledge of the girl’s existence, or if the mother even knew who the father was. Just curious. > > Anyhoo. > > Humanity just lost another 10 points in my Scale of Worthiness, now comfortably sitting behind amoebae and junkyard critters. :sad: \*\* Aw, don’t feel too bad. After all, there is the Polycarp Thread. ---
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2002, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/houdopers-read-todays-paper-merry-christmas/144464/40 "2002-12-30T02:28:11Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Derleth \* > \*\*Watch the movie _Mommie Dearest_. > > Read up on what actually happened. > > I still want verification. \*\* My link actually does show that there is something to it beyond just the sons’ words, but unfortunately child abuse cases are sealed. So, unless he screws up royally and beats the shit out of another one of his kids with the cameras rolling, you’ll have to move to Topeka and let Freddy adopt you to get the real skinny. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/houdopers-read-todays-paper-merry-christmas/144464.md?page=1)