# House Gets Executive Urges **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 30, 2007, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-gets-executive-urges/413722 "2007-07-30T19:56:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Lenin\_s\_Tomb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/dc4da7/32.png) [@Lenin\_s\_Tomb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lenin_s_Tomb)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2007, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-gets-executive-urges/413722/21 "2007-07-31T03:24:19Z")
I’m pretty sure Tom Tancredo (R-Birkenau) does not think it should be illegal to shoot at Mexicans, period. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2007, 7:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-gets-executive-urges/413722/22 "2007-07-31T07:05:04Z")
[QUOTE=Blalron] I feel it outrageous to grant any form of clemency in this case. Shooting an unarmed man in the back is absolutely unacceptable, especially for law enforcement officers. I don’t care how much marijuana he was trying to smuggle into the country. Bullets kill. Weed does not. [/QUOTE] Well, personal use of weed probably doesn’t, but do you think that the drug trade—even pot—doesn’t result in deaths? I’m talkiing about traficking, dealing, gang involvment, etc. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2007, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-gets-executive-urges/413722/23 "2007-08-01T02:22:59Z")
[QUOTE=magellan01] Well, personal use of weed probably doesn’t, but do you think that the drug trade—even pot—doesn’t result in deaths? I’m talkiing about traficking, dealing, gang involvment, etc. [/QUOTE] Yes, it does. What does that have to do with shooting an unarmed and apparently harmless smuggler in the back? ---
**Author:** ![Lenin\_s\_Tomb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/dc4da7/32.png) [@Lenin\_s\_Tomb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lenin_s_Tomb)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2007, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-gets-executive-urges/413722/24 "2007-08-01T05:25:41Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] Yes, it does. What does that have to do with shooting an unarmed and apparently harmless smuggler in the back? [/QUOTE] Well, the whole reason the drug war exists is so government officials can shoot anyone they want, confiscate property without trial, and shred the Constitution, then escape any punishment or oversight by shouting the magic words “drug smuggler.” The line between the existence of the war on drugs and the fact that some Congressmen don’t think it should be against the law to shoot Mexicans is more solid than it might seem on the surface. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2007, 5:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-gets-executive-urges/413722/25 "2007-08-01T05:42:31Z")
[QUOTE=magellan01] I’ll have to agree with the OP and\*\* ITR champion\*\*. As much as I think that those two should be relased immediately, \ [/QUOTE] The blatant violation of the laws governing the use of deadly force\*, **magellan01** ; in what way do you justify the position that incarceration is not an appropriate consequence? Sorry if this debate has already been held. I may have missed it. I don’t spend much time in this forum lately, but Bush-bashing in the Pit has been kind of slow for the past week, and I thought I’d take a look around… \*For starters. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2007, 6:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-gets-executive-urges/413722/26 "2007-08-01T06:52:27Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] Yes, it does. What does that have to do with shooting an unarmed and apparently harmless smuggler in the back? [/QUOTE] The comment was simply offered to counter the one statement made implying the weed did not kill. It was not meant to be a commentary on the justification of the shooting. I will say that because drug dealing is a problem—yes, even pot—that our border patrol has to take the situation seriously. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2007, 7:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-gets-executive-urges/413722/27 "2007-08-01T07:01:33Z")
[QUOTE=kaylasdad99] The blatant violation of the laws governing the use of deadly force\*, **magellan01** ; in what way do you justify the position that incarceration is not an appropriate consequence? Sorry if this debate has already been held. I may have missed it. I don’t spend much time in this forum lately, but Bush-bashing in the Pit has been kind of slow for the past week, and I thought I’d take a look around… [/QUOTE] Those guys stated that they thought he had a gun and turned to shoot at them. This after a brief struggle with one of them before he took off. If your interested in the facts of the case, here’s [one quick site I found](http://www.amw.com/features/feature_story_detail.cfm?id=1369) This is tangential to the OP, so if you’re really interested in discussing it you might want to start a new thread. Or possibly do a search. I’ve not been on the Dope much for a while myself. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2007, 7:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-gets-executive-urges/413722/28 "2007-08-01T07:32:07Z")
Haven’t been much of a one for starting discussion-type threads, particularly in GD, so I’ll wait until someone else does. But the whole business of picking up the shell casings and not reporting the discharge of their weapons strikes me as consistent with a strategy of “do and say whatever they can to cover their asses”. Saying that they thought he had a gun and turned to shoot at them also seems consistent with such a strategy, besides being lame and stupid. I wonder if they testified to that at their trial, or if it was just something they told investigators before they were indicted? ETA: Thanks for the link, btw. Nice “facts”. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2007, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-gets-executive-urges/413722/29 "2007-08-01T14:13:23Z")
Getting back to the OP: The relative power of the presidency/executive vis-a-vis Congress has grown alarmingly, and not just since W became POTUS. Congress needs to reassert itself and start taking some of that power back. That said, this is a really ill-advised clumsy-ass way to begin the process. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2007, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-gets-executive-urges/413722/30 "2007-08-01T14:58:43Z")
Or could the law be followed by locking them in a prision but otherwise not attending to them or feeding them? ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2007, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-gets-executive-urges/413722/31 "2007-08-01T15:09:35Z")
[QUOTE=toadspittle] That’s fairly insane. Doesn’t that pretty effectively violate the 14th amendment? … or can you get around this by arguing that the amendment doesn’t operate in the positive sense? (i.e., you can’t DENY people of privileges/protection unequally, but you can GRANT ADDITIONAL privileges and protection in any way you want?\_ [/QUOTE] Well, one reason the 14th amendment doesn’t apply is that it only restricts the states, not the feds. For that, you’ll need the 5th amendment. Many believe that the 5th amendment now embodies the principles of the 14th (though there’s still some debate). But even so, due process doesn’t apply here because, as you point out, no one is being deprived of liberty without due process. Equal protection always applies when a law only effects some sub-group, but Congress need only have a rational basis for passing such a law. ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Call_Me_Shirley)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2007, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-gets-executive-urges/413722/32 "2007-08-01T15:10:36Z")
But Bush would have to sign the law before it became enforceable. Bush signing the law would be sort of a de facto commutation. So the legislature still does not have the power to keep these guys out of prison without the cooperation of the president; therefore, no additional powers have been seized by the legislature. (Yes, technically the legislature could override the veto, but if the politics in this country continue down the same road they have been on, I would be astonished to ever see any veto overridden ever again. It just does not seem possible with today’s straight party line votes, unless one party were to gain a 2/3 majority of both houses, an extremely remote possibility IMHO.) ---
**Author:** ![Nancarrow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c37758/32.png) [@Nancarrow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nancarrow)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2007, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-gets-executive-urges/413722/33 "2007-08-01T15:26:23Z")
What, again? I thought he already did that at the end of Season 2. (d&r) ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2007, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-gets-executive-urges/413722/34 "2007-08-02T01:40:14Z")
[QUOTE=Squink] Is there any reason private citizens couldn’t raise funds to pay for the incarceration of these guys? I’d kick in a few bucks to the “Bricker fund to Ensure Justice”, if such a thing existed; if only to cheese off the wankers in the house who are trying to do something they shouldn’t be doing. [/QUOTE] That would be an even worse precedent: imprisonment of criminals if and when enough people are cheesed off by the prospect of their going free to pay for their incarceration. Yeesh. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2007, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-gets-executive-urges/413722/35 "2007-08-02T02:55:28Z")
[QUOTE=magellan01] Those guys stated that they thought he had a gun and turned to shoot at them. [/QUOTE] They were mistaken. When someone injures another as a result of negligence, they are guilty of a crime. Justice has been served. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2007, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-gets-executive-urges/413722/36 "2007-08-02T03:00:29Z")
[QUOTE=Don’t Call Me Shirley] But Bush would have to sign the law before it became enforceable. Bush signing the law would be sort of a de facto commutation. So the legislature still does not have the power to keep these guys out of prison without the cooperation of the president; therefore, no additional powers have been seized by the legislature. [/quote] No. There’s no line item veto. The president is given the choice of defato commutation, yes, but refusing it means the spending bill to which this amendment is attached doesn’t become law. Everything else funded by this bill gets screwed if the President pushes back on the commutation. That is not consistent with how pardons or commutations should be handled. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2007, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-gets-executive-urges/413722/37 "2007-08-02T03:02:01Z")
[QUOTE=Fear Itself] They were mistaken. When someone injures another as a result of negligence, they are guilty of a crime. [/quote] Incomplete at best, wrong at worst. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2007, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-gets-executive-urges/413722/38 "2007-08-02T03:02:02Z")
[More general, wide-focus thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=431101) on the proper balance of power between Congress and the presidency. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2007, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-gets-executive-urges/413722/39 "2007-08-02T03:03:21Z")
[QUOTE=Fear Itself] When someone injures another as a result of negligence, they are guilty of a crime. [/QUOTE] No, that’s a **tort.** It can also be a crime if certain aggravating circumstances are present, but as stated, it’s a tort. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2007, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-gets-executive-urges/413722/40 "2007-08-02T03:06:50Z")
[QUOTE=Bricker] Incomplete at best, wrong at worst. [/QUOTE] In your opinion. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-gets-executive-urges/413722.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-gets-executive-urges/413722.md?page=3)