# House Judiciary Committee to have hearing on Libby commutation **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 4, 2007, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-judiciary-committee-to-have-hearing-on-libby-commutation/410516 "2007-07-04T18:28:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![BarnOwl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e95f7d/32.png) [@BarnOwl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BarnOwl)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2007, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-judiciary-committee-to-have-hearing-on-libby-commutation/410516/21 "2007-07-05T02:41:26Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] :dubious: This Admin’s unprecedented arrogance and abuse of power **is the** real issue facing our nation. [/QUOTE] But don’t you remember, **BrainGlutton** , that this is exactly what Dubya promised? ''If there is a leak out of my administration, I want to know who it is. And if that person has violated the law, the person will be taken care of." – George W. Bush, October 2003 Except for the headline, the above is the entire text of Steve Young’s column at [http://www.smirkingchimp.com/node/8513](http://www.smirkingchimp.com/node/8513) ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2007, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-judiciary-committee-to-have-hearing-on-libby-commutation/410516/22 "2007-07-05T02:51:29Z")
[QUOTE=Pochacco] Doubtful. It just reinforces the narrative thats been building since Katrina that the Republican Party is the party of corruption and cronyism. Bush is a Jonah and the longer the Republicans keep supporting him, the bigger the bloodbath in 2008. My sense of justice screams for impeachment. My cold political calculus says “let him twist in the wind”. Either way, it’s all good. [/QUOTE] But either way, it might backfire! Anything the Democrats do might backfire! After all, practically everything the Bush Admin. has done has backfired! ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2007, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-judiciary-committee-to-have-hearing-on-libby-commutation/410516/23 "2007-07-05T02:52:59Z")
[QUOTE=Blalron] I propose we move the power to pardon away from the Chief Executive, and towards a politically independent Board of Pardons and Reprieves. Like the Federal Reserve, Board Members would serve 12 year terms. The board would be responsible for setting pardon and commutation guidelines, any board member may submit a case for consideration. [/QUOTE] Or just give Congress the power to overide presidential pardons by a 2/3 bote in each chamber and within a certain time limit like 3-6 months. ---
**Author:** ![plnnr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7ea924/32.png) [@plnnr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/plnnr)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2007, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-judiciary-committee-to-have-hearing-on-libby-commutation/410516/24 "2007-07-05T15:16:00Z")
Summertime, and the living’s easy. Congress doesn’t have the votes or balls to do anything about Iraq. Immigration reform is a non-starter. You’ll be able to buy beach front property in Lincoln, NE before Congress gets around to addressing climate change in any meaningful way. No Supreme Court nominees to haggle over. They’re stuck in Washington in July with nothing to do. Might as well make some political hay while the sunshines. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2007, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-judiciary-committee-to-have-hearing-on-libby-commutation/410516/25 "2007-07-05T15:57:03Z")
[QUOTE=Blalron] I propose we move the power to pardon away from the Chief Executive, and towards a politically independent Board of Pardons and Reprieves. Like the Federal Reserve, Board Members would serve 12 year terms. The board would be responsible for setting pardon and commutation guidelines, any board member may submit a case for consideration. [/QUOTE] This isn’t necessarily a bad idea. I think the reason we haven’t gone that route is because the pardon/reprieve authority of the President has always been viewed as a “last, emergency resort” when someone has possibly gone through all the institutional channels available and is still being wronged. There are of course several cases of persons being pardoned by Governors who failed to get their appeals through the court system, people who were most probably innocent (or at the very least shouldn’t have been found guilty.) The question is, if you put in a Board of Pardons and Reprieves how different is it from the same institutional authorities that will presumably already have been exhausted by the time someone is pardoned or granted a commuted sentence? Aside from being viewed as an exceptional last resort, I think it’s also viewed as an actual policy tool. Many would argue that Carter’s blanket amnesty for draft dodgers, or Madison and Lincoln’s pardons for deserters all served an important purpose–and those pardons most certainly wouldn’t have been approved by a standard pardon/reprieve board. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2007, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-judiciary-committee-to-have-hearing-on-libby-commutation/410516/26 "2007-07-05T17:29:31Z")
[QUOTE=Mr. Moto] There is only one politician in this presidential campaign who has done anything substantial to clean up a corrupt pardon system. And he’s running as a Republican. [/QUOTE] Which one? ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2007, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-judiciary-committee-to-have-hearing-on-libby-commutation/410516/27 "2007-07-05T17:49:39Z")
Fred Thompson was Marie Ragghianti’s attorney - she was the chairwoman of the Tennessee Parole Board who was fired under suspicious circumstances. Thompson proved in court that she was fired because she refused to release prisoners who had bribed aides of Governor Ray Blanton. She was reinstated with back pay, and the resulting scandal drove Blanton from office. Blanton even tried to push through bad pardons while a lame duck, causing outraged politicians from both parties to support the early swearing-in of his successor. Tennessee law at the time permitted this, and the State Police secured the Capitol Complex to prevent Blanton’s entrance to any offices there. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2007, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-judiciary-committee-to-have-hearing-on-libby-commutation/410516/28 "2007-07-05T19:16:20Z")
[QUOTE=Mr. Moto] Fred Thompson was Marie Ragghianti’s attorney - she was the chairwoman of the Tennessee Parole Board who was fired under suspicious circumstances. Thompson proved in court that she was fired because she refused to release prisoners who had bribed aides of Governor Ray Blanton. She was reinstated with back pay, and the resulting scandal drove Blanton from office. [/QUOTE] I would say that reflects well on Thompson’s civic conscience – if he had not [served as a mole for Nixon.](http://www.boston.com/news/nation/washington/articles/2007/07/04/not_all_would_put_a_heroic_sheen_on_thompsons_watergate_role/?page=1) ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2007, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-judiciary-committee-to-have-hearing-on-libby-commutation/410516/29 "2007-07-05T19:46:41Z")
Be that as it may, the fact is that Hillary Clinton has been slammed by several commentators in the past few days for speaking out on the Libby commutation matter - and a lot of these critics are not her usual ones in the conservative camp. [This deserves a full read.](http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070704/ap_on_go_pr_wh/unpardonable_politics) > [@](#): > > Democrats responded as if they don’t live in glass houses, decrying corruption, favoritism and a lack of justice. > > “This commutation sends the clear signal that in this administration, cronyism and ideology trump competence and justice,” said Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton of New York, a leading candidate for the Democratic presidential nomination. > > It was a brazen statement from a woman entangled in many Clinton White House scandals, including the final one: On his last day in office, President Clinton granted 140 pardons and 36 commutations, many of them controversial. > > One of those pardoned was Marc Rich, who had fled the country after being indicted for tax evasion and whose wife had donated more than $1 million to Democratic causes. > > Clinton’s half brother, Roger, who was convicted of distributing cocaine and lobbied the White House on behalf of others, also received a pardon. > > Hillary Clinton’s brother, Hugh Rodham, was paid tens of thousands of dollars in his successful bid to win pardons for a businessman under investigation for money laundering and a commutation for a convicted drug trafficker. Her other brother, Tony, lobbied successfully for clemency on behalf of a couple convicted of bank fraud. > > It’s hard to fathom that those pardons had absolutely nothing to do with cronyism or ideology, but Hillary Clinton defended them. She drew a distinction between her husband’s pardons and Bush’s commutation. > > …What about all those Democrats who thought public shame was punishment enough for Clinton lying under oath, basically the position adopted today by Libby’s supporters? Many of those Democrats now think Libby should go to jail for his perjury. > > “There appears to be rank hypocrisy at work here on both sides of the political spectrum,” said Joe Gaylord, a GOP consultant who worked for House Speaker Newt Gingrich during impeachment. “It causes Americans to shake their heads in disgust at the political system.” > > The Libby case followed the same pattern of hype and hypocrisy established during Clinton’s impeachment scandal. It’s as if we’re all sentenced to relive the same sad scene: > > A powerful man lies or otherwise does wrong. > > He gets caught. > > His enemies overreach in the name of justice. > > His friends minimize the crime in pursuit of self-interest. > > And the powerful man hires a lawyer. > > Marc Rich had a high-priced attorney for his battles with the justice system. His name was Scooter Libby. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2007, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-judiciary-committee-to-have-hearing-on-libby-commutation/410516/30 "2007-07-05T22:42:33Z")
[QUOTE=Mr. Moto] Be that as it may, the fact is that Hillary Clinton has been slammed by several commentators in the past few days for speaking out on the Libby commutation matter - and a lot of these critics are not her usual ones in the conservative camp. [This deserves a full read.](http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070704/ap_on_go_pr_wh/unpardonable_politics) [/QUOTE] [shrug] When the pot calls the kettle black . . . the kettle is black. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2007, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-judiciary-committee-to-have-hearing-on-libby-commutation/410516/31 "2007-07-06T22:36:50Z")
[QUOTE=Blalron] I propose we move the power to pardon away from the Chief Executive, and towards a politically independent Board of Pardons and Reprieves. [/QUOTE] At the state level, Massachusetts is once again well ahead of the rest of the country on that. The elected Governor’s Council does just that, along with judicial nominations. It’s no guarantee of Good Government, though - they had a pardon-selling scandal in the 70’s that at one point would have allowed the Council to reach a quorum in prison. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2007, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-judiciary-committee-to-have-hearing-on-libby-commutation/410516/32 "2007-07-06T23:18:54Z")
> [@](#): > > I suppose it’s too much to hope for that they’ll decide the real purpose of the commutation was obstruction of justice and protection of his own and Cheney’s asses, and decide it’s an impeachable offense. Very little chance of that. The case went through a full trial. The only way I could see a case being made for obstruction would be if there was clear evidence of a prior agreement with Libby that he would be pardoned in exchange for what he said in court. > [@](#): > > It was a brazen statement from a woman entangled in many Clinton White House scandals, including the final one: On his last day in office, President Clinton granted 140 pardons and 36 commutations, many of them controversial. This dog won’t hunt (except among the crowd who believes Bill and Hillary are Satan reborn). Unlike Libby, none of the people mentioned who were pardoned by Clinton were convicted of crimes allegedly perpetrated on Clinton’s behalf. And Clinton was never foolish enough to publically promise to punish anyone he later planned on pardoning or commuting. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2007, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-judiciary-committee-to-have-hearing-on-libby-commutation/410516/33 "2007-07-07T03:29:19Z")
[QUOTE=Little Nemo] This dog won’t hunt (except among the crowd who believes Bill and Hillary are Satan reborn). Unlike Libby, none of the people mentioned who were pardoned by Clinton were convicted of crimes allegedly perpetrated on Clinton’s behalf. [/QUOTE] Wasn’t mentioned in the article, but Susan McDougal and Christopher Wade were granted pardons, and both of them were ass-deep in the Whitewater scandal. ---
**Author:** ![squeegee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/squeegee/32/14537_2.png) [@squeegee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squeegee)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2007, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-judiciary-committee-to-have-hearing-on-libby-commutation/410516/34 "2007-07-07T03:57:05Z")
[QUOTE=Mr. Moto] Wasn’t mentioned in the article, but Susan McDougal and Christopher Wade were granted pardons, and both of them were ass-deep in the Whitewater scandal. [/QUOTE] After [both](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Susan_McDougal) of [them](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Wade) spent time in prison. Unlike Libby. ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2007, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-judiciary-committee-to-have-hearing-on-libby-commutation/410516/35 "2007-07-07T12:47:32Z")
[QUOTE=David Simmons] It’s a waste of time. There are not votes to convict on impeachment. Let’s just forget about impeachment. [/QUOTE] I doubt there’s enough votes to convict. At least not now. But it certainly wouldn’t hurt to let the House set up a special committee to determine whether impeachment is warranted. It would be much, much harder for the Bush Whitehouse to stonewall subpeonas that are pursuant to an impeachment investigation with “Executive Privilege.” ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2007, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-judiciary-committee-to-have-hearing-on-libby-commutation/410516/36 "2007-07-07T12:58:02Z")
[QUOTE=Blalron] I doubt there’s enough votes to convict. At least not now. But it certainly wouldn’t hurt to let the House set up a special committee to determine whether impeachment is warranted. It would be much, much harder for the Bush Whitehouse to stonewall subpeonas that are pursuant to an impeachment investigation with “Executive Privilege.” [/QUOTE] A few weeks of hearings on the countless nasty things that this administration has done (the stuff that’s gone public is horrific enough, I shudder to think what misdeeds they’ve still managed to keep under wraps) and the public might, just might, get behind impeachment. I absolutely nothing wrong with the House trying to build a case for impeachment. If they can’t dig up any dirt that will sufficiently outrage the public, they can just let it die in committee. It’s a longshot, but it’s not impossible. We’ll never know unless we try. Nothing ventured, nothing gained. ---
**Author:** ![BarnOwl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e95f7d/32.png) [@BarnOwl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BarnOwl)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2007, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-judiciary-committee-to-have-hearing-on-libby-commutation/410516/37 "2007-07-07T13:23:19Z")
[QUOTE=Mr. Moto] Wasn’t mentioned in the article, but Susan McDougal and Christopher Wade were granted pardons, and both of them were ass-deep in the Whitewater scandal. [/QUOTE] News Breaking Hijack You will be vastly underwhelmed to learn - if you haven’t already noticed - that your namesake (Mr. Moto) made it in yesterday’s NY Times crossword puzzle. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2007, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-judiciary-committee-to-have-hearing-on-libby-commutation/410516/38 "2007-07-07T15:32:06Z")
[QUOTE=squeegee] After [both](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Susan_McDougal) of [them](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Wade) spent time in prison. Unlike Libby. [/QUOTE] Also, MacDougal’s only crime, IIRC, was not telling Ken Starr what he wanted to hear, so she was being subjected to the pre-Bush Administration equivalent of torture by Starr. Very mild stuff compared to the real thing, but that was obviously what Starr was up to. Pardoning MacDougal was the right thing to do, ethically and morally speaking. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2007, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-judiciary-committee-to-have-hearing-on-libby-commutation/410516/39 "2007-07-07T15:41:40Z")
[QUOTE=BarnOwl] News Breaking Hijack You will be vastly underwhelmed to learn - if you haven’t already noticed - that your namesake (Mr. Moto) made it in yesterday’s NY Times crossword puzzle. [/QUOTE] It turns up a lot these days. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2007, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-judiciary-committee-to-have-hearing-on-libby-commutation/410516/40 "2007-07-07T15:51:03Z")
[QUOTE=squeegee] After [both](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Susan_McDougal) of [them](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Wade) spent time in prison. Unlike Libby. [/QUOTE] All that shows is that Clinton was too cowardly to take the political heat and pardon them before he was walking out of the door of the WH. There was nothing magical about the date he pardoned them other than it was his last as president. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-judiciary-committee-to-have-hearing-on-libby-commutation/410516.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-judiciary-committee-to-have-hearing-on-libby-commutation/410516.md?page=3)