# House of Elrond - Castle **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 17, 2014, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-of-elrond-castle/688643 "2014-05-17T17:59:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![BorgHunter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@BorgHunter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BorgHunter)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2014, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-of-elrond-castle/688643/21 "2014-05-18T13:24:33Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > When a chess player who insists upon the “rook” terminology performs that move involving the king and the rook simultaneously, is it still called “castling”? In so, could someone explain the derivation of the name for that move? “Castle” as a synonym for rook is old-fashioned and slangy. Think of how Mr. Burns speaks—referring to a rook as a “castle” evokes about the same effect. The term “castling” comes from that old slang for “rook” and is, in fact, the correct term for the move. “Castle” is _not_ an acceptable synonym for “rook” in modern chess. ---
**Author:** ![blindboyard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blindboyard/32/2833_2.png) [@blindboyard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blindboyard)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2014, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-of-elrond-castle/688643/22 "2014-05-18T14:46:58Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > [Are you talking about this one?](http://www.hobbitshop.com/product/the+lord+of+the+rings+collector's+chess+set+from+noble+lotrnbchss.do?ref=CAFRGL&gclid=CNXDsI7os74CFYqFfgodb08A1g) Pretty as anything, but, whoa, $450? > > (I’ll just print out little pictures of the characters and mount them on cardboard. Same overall effect, and I save a ton of money!) That website doesn’t seem to be working. This one has Sauron and Aragorn as kings; Shelob and Galadriel as Queens; Balrog, Saruman, Gimli and Gandalf as Bishops; Orthanc, Barad-Dur, House of Elrond and an unlabeled tower which was probably Minas Tirith as Castles; Eowyn, Legolas, “Lord of the Naz’Gul” and “Black Rider” as knights, Hobbit and Orc Warrior as Pawns. Who were the other side in that Star Trek set, I wonder? ---
**Author:** ![keeganst94](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/a6a055/32.png) [@keeganst94](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/keeganst94)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2014, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-of-elrond-castle/688643/23 "2014-05-18T14:53:03Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally posted by **BorgHunter** > > “Castle” as a synonym for rook is old-fashioned and slangy. Think of how Mr. Burns speaks—referring to a rook as a “castle” evokes about the same effect. > > The term “castling” comes from that old slang for “rook” and is, in fact, the correct term for the move. “Castle” is not an acceptable synonym for “rook” in modern chess. Which is really kind of weird, because the original term was rukh, apparently. So it went rukh, then renamed into tower/castle, then for some reason everybody went back to rook and decided the newer term was old-fashioned. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2014, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-of-elrond-castle/688643/24 "2014-05-18T16:42:29Z")
> [@Bozuit](#): > > The USS Enterprise is the only thing on your list capable of FTL travel and you make it the least mobile piece? Pfffft. Actually, that’s fair. Kirk is King, certainly. The Enterprise is Queen. He may fuck around with the green chicks, but he’s married to his ship. ---
**Author:** ![Bozuit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/edb3f5/32.png) [@Bozuit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bozuit)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2014, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-of-elrond-castle/688643/25 "2014-05-18T23:07:48Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > For pawns you use nameless [redshirts](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redshirt_(character)). Yep, that was the point. One of the few things I know about Star Trek. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2014, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-of-elrond-castle/688643/26 "2014-05-19T00:00:13Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > I’m carving a LotR chess set, too (and have been for many years-- It’s a long and sporadic project). I’m going with a lineup of K: Aragorn, Q: Arwen, B: Galadriel and Gandalf, N: Eowyn and Eomer, R: Rivendell and Minas Tirith, with pawns Bilbo, Frodo, Sam, Merry, Pippen, Fredegar Bolger, Lobelia S-B, and Farmer Maggot. > > For black, it’s K: Sauron, Q: Shelob, B: Balrog and Saruman, N: Witch-King and Khamul, R: Barad-Dur and Orthanc, and assorted orcs as pawns. > > Yes, I know that this means leaving off Legolas, Gimli, and Boromir, but there’s really no good place to fit them in. If I ever actually finish the main set, I might just make extra statues for them, too. I like your line up. Though I might take Meduseld or better yet Helm’s Deep over Rivendell. But that is a minor matter of opinion. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2014, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-of-elrond-castle/688643/27 "2014-05-19T03:51:16Z")
> [@BorgHunter](#): > > “Castle” as a synonym for rook is old-fashioned and slangy. Think of how Mr. Burns speaks—referring to a rook as a “castle” evokes about the same effect. > > The term “castling” comes from that old slang for “rook” and is, in fact, the correct term for the move. “Castle” is _not_ an acceptable synonym for “rook” in modern chess. What was “castling” called _before_ “castle” as the slangy term for rook came on the scene, then? ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2014, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-of-elrond-castle/688643/28 "2014-05-19T21:43:48Z")
> [@garygnu](#): > > “Castle” is a perfectly valid term for the piece in question. When was the last time you saw a crow in the corner of a chess board? Rook has nothing to do with the bird. As keeganst94 said, that piece was originally called ‘rukh’ (Persian for ‘chariot’, I believe) and it seems reasonable that Western Europeans simply overheard the word and used an English ‘equivalent’. Similarly ‘shah mat’ (Persian for ‘the King is dead’) probably mutated into ‘checkmate’. > [@BorgHunter](#): > > “Castle” is _not_ an acceptable synonym for “rook” in modern chess. +1 > [@kaylasdad99](#): > > What was “castling” called _before_ “castle” as the slangy term for rook came on the scene, then? Well the castling move only came in as one of a number of rule amendments (including new Queen, Bishop and Pawn moves) in the Middle Ages. I don’t know how the name arose, but perhaps as a description of the King moving into the safety of a castle? ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2014, 7:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-of-elrond-castle/688643/29 "2014-05-20T07:21:36Z")
Some other languages do call them “towers”, but that’s not the point: English-speaking chessplayers (and really, once **glee** has weighed in it fits the rest of us to resign) call them “rooks” and calling it a “castle” is the hallmark of a n00b. End of. IIRC castling was introduced in a country where they do call Rooks towers, so the name followed naturally. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2014, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-of-elrond-castle/688643/30 "2014-05-20T13:08:06Z")
If you made a _Firefly_ chess set, who would you leave off? I’d go with Simon. K - Mal Q - Inara B - Kaylee, Wash N - Zoe, Jayne R - River, Book Dunno what you do for pawns, or the black pieces. ---
**Author:** ![Bozuit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/edb3f5/32.png) [@Bozuit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bozuit)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2014, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-of-elrond-castle/688643/31 "2014-05-21T19:27:55Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > If you made a _Firefly_ chess set, who would you leave off? I’d go with Simon. > > K - Mal > Q - Inara > B - Kaylee, Wash > N - Zoe, Jayne > R - River, Book > > Dunno what you do for pawns, or the black pieces. Why on Earth wouldn’t you make Zoe Queen? She’s second-in-command and the most useful/versatile, Mal excepted. Inara isn’t even a crew member. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2014, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-of-elrond-castle/688643/32 "2014-05-21T19:51:37Z")
> [@Bozuit](#): > > Why on Earth wouldn’t you make Zoe Queen? She’s second-in-command and the most useful/versatile, Mal excepted. Inara isn’t even a crew member. Because Zoe and Jayne have similar skills - other than Mal, they’re the warriors of the crew. Hence knights. Now that I think about it, we should have the matched pair of Book and River be the bishops, not the rooks. They’re a matched pair in that they’re both mystics with unusual real-world skills. Mystics –\> religion –\> bishops. Even if River corrects Book’s Bible. 🙂 And Kaylee and Wash have similar properties in that they’re the ones who keep _Serenity_ flying: Wash by piloting it, and Kaylee by keeping it running. So they should be the same kind of piece. Looks like rooks are what’s left, so they’re rooks. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-of-elrond-castle/688643.md?page=1)