# House passes Gun Bill **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 7, 2017, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-gun-bill/803826 "2017-12-07T20:06:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2017, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-gun-bill/803826/201 "2017-12-27T16:30:32Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Sure. No doubt a certain % of both sides are stupid. > > But the anti-gun crowd are too often _willfully ignorant._ Like not knowing the difference between semi-automatic and full automatic. Like thinking that “assault weapons” are a real thing. Like thinking that the 2nd Ad only applies to Guns around at the time the Constitution was signed. Time after time we have had to correct the anti-gun crowd here of simple mistakes in ignorance. Two things there. The first is that there are many people in this world, and that you have educated one about the technical details of your toys does not mean that another is as equally educated. Fighting ignorance takes a while, and you have to do it one person at a time. If your complaint is that there are still people in this world that do not know all the proper terminology for your hobby, then that’s really not something that you should be complaining about, especially not in such dismissive terms. I mean, seriously, it’s terminology that you are complaining about. You may as well get your ire up about people that use “literally” to mean figuratively. > [@Bricker](#): > > k9b: > > Do you play blackjack, by chance? Not really, but I know the game (I wrote a blackjack program on my TI back in the early 80’s), so I’ll snip your explanation… > [@](#): > > For a player, the weakest possible position is to have a sixteen, with the dealer’s exposed card worth ten. > > The correct play here, in basic strategy, is to take a hit. You’re more likely to bust than in any other situation, true, but it’s the best choice available. > > I draw this analogy to carrying concealed. If you in fact have a gun pointed at you, having access to a concealed weapon of your own is not a magic shield. But it does allow you to make more choices, to pick the best of a set of poor options. You’re in a weak position already; having the weapon doesn’t make you weaker. > > (Amusingly some casinos offer a player the option to withdraw at the beginning of a play by surrendering half their bet: in that event, with a hard sixteen facing a dealer ten, surrender is the best option.) Hmmm, you just summed it up pretty well. Now, remember, in this analogy, a “bust” is when you are dead, not when you lose your bet. You have 16, they have 10, and you have the option to surrender. Lose half your bet or take a chance that could cost your (and bystanders) life. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2017, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-gun-bill/803826/202 "2017-12-27T16:34:30Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > And then I can say that the pro-gun crowd is too often _grossly negligent in gun safety._ Both sides have people negligent in child safety. It’s drowning and suffocation that kill the most kids (and car accidents) by a huge margin. [https://www.cdc.gov/safechild/pdf/cdc-childhoodinjury.pdf](https://www.cdc.gov/safechild/pdf/cdc-childhoodinjury.pdf) _Combining all unintentional injury deaths among those between 0 and 19 years, motor vehicle traffic–related deaths were the leading cause. The leading causes of injury death differed by age group. For children less than 1 year of age, two–thirds of injury deaths were due to suffocation. Drowning was the leading cause injury death for those 1 to 4 years of age. For children 5 to 19 years of age, the most injury deaths were due to being an occupant in a motor vehicle traffic crash._ Guns dont even register. Somewhere around 100 kids die from firearm accidents- of the over 12000 accidental deaths per year. Not even 1%. Your kid is more at risk by simply living in Arkansas than from guns. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2017, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-gun-bill/803826/203 "2017-12-27T16:40:32Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Two things there. The first is that there are many people in this world, and that you have educated one about the technical details of your toys does not mean that another is as equally educated. Fighting ignorance takes a while, and you have to do it one person at a time. If your complaint is that there are still people in this world that do not know all the proper terminology for your hobby, then that’s really not something that you should be complaining about, especially not in such dismissive terms. > > I mean, seriously, it’s terminology that you are complaining about. You may as well get your ire up about people that use “literally” to mean figuratively. Not \*my \*hobby. I only own a old .22 from my scouting days and my old service pistol. I am a small l libertarian on this, since gun control laws do virtually nothing to reduce violent crime, i dont see any benefit to putting otherwise law abiding citizens (with a hobby) into prison. But when gun grabbers say “Ban cop killer bullets!” (no such thing) or "Ban assault “Ban Automatic weapons!” (which are, for most puroposes, already banned) then I can say they are trying to pass laws out of wilful ignorance. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2017, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-gun-bill/803826/204 "2017-12-27T16:46:14Z")
> [@BlueMerle](#): > > You keep saying that as if it’s true. It’s not. > > Again, not true. Are you aware that when someone with a LTC from one state crosses over into another state (that recognizes the LTC issued by his home state) he is required to obey the laws of the state he’s in, with respect to CC? > > Were this bill to pass and I were to travel to NYC, I’d have to obey all the NY laws with respect to CC. > > The individual states retain full control over CC within their borders. So, what you are saying is that if someone from say, Missouri comes to Ohio, then Ohio can require that that person from Missouri has completed the required training to get a CCW in Ohio? I don’t think that is the case. And unless that is the case, then what I am saying is entirely true. > [@](#): > > :rolleyes: Not sure what that was for. You were confused, so I helped to clear up your confusion. ---
**Author:** ![BlueMerle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a87d85/32.png) [@BlueMerle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlueMerle)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2017, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-gun-bill/803826/205 "2017-12-27T16:47:05Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > i dont see any benefit to putting otherwise law abiding citizens (with a hobby) into prison. This, for me, is the crux of the matter. I’d be happy to let national CCR fall by the wayside if states like NY, NJ (especially NJ), CA and others, would stop putting people into prison for simply ‘possessing a gun’ and are not otherwise engaged in any criminal activity. That’s not going to happen and I know it, so I support national CCR. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2017, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-gun-bill/803826/206 "2017-12-27T16:48:27Z")
Let me try that again: But when gun grabbers say “Ban cop killer bullets!” (no such thing) or “Ban assault weapons” (which defintion is purely legal and varies state by state and year by year) or “Ban Automatic weapons!” (which are, for most purposes, already banned) then I can say they are trying to pass laws out of wilful ignorance. ---
**Author:** ![BlueMerle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a87d85/32.png) [@BlueMerle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlueMerle)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2017, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-gun-bill/803826/207 "2017-12-27T16:50:42Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > So, what you are saying is that if someone from say, Missouri comes to Ohio, then Ohio can require that that person from Missouri has completed the required training to get a CCW in Ohio? > > I don’t think that is the case. And unless that is the case, then what I am saying is entirely true. No, but they can make them obey Ohio laws with respect to CC. Does Ohio currently have any authority to enforce a set of standards on Missouri for CC? You seem to want to make that the case. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2017, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-gun-bill/803826/208 "2017-12-27T16:50:50Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > So, what you are saying is that if someone from say, Missouri comes to Ohio, then Ohio can require that that person from Missouri has completed the required training to get a CCW in Ohio? > > I don’t think that is the case. And unless that is the case, then what I am saying is entirely true. > > Not sure what that was for. You were confused, so I helped to clear up your confusion. No, and why would anyone do that? When you drive your car into another state, you have to obey all\* their\* traffic laws\*. You dont have to requalify to get a drivers license for each state. - I come from CA where right turn on Red is Ok, but I can’t do that in other states just becuase I am from CA. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2017, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-gun-bill/803826/209 "2017-12-27T16:59:15Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Guns dont even register. Somewhere around 100 kids die from firearm accidents- of the over 12000 accidental deaths per year. Not even 1%. > > Your kid is more at risk by simply living in Arkansas than from guns. So, it’s just 100 kids per year. Not something that we should even think about. No reason to ask people to be responsible with their guns. No need for any safety or for them to properly lock them up. And that’s just the accidental ones. All told, it’s closer to [1300](https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/nearly-1-300-kids-killed-guns-each-year-study-finds-n774086). > [@DrDeth](#): > > Not \*my \*hobby. I only own a old .22 from my scouting days and my old service pistol. I am a small l libertarian on this, since gun control laws do virtually nothing to reduce violent crime, i dont see any benefit to putting otherwise law abiding citizens (with a hobby) into prison. > > But when gun grabbers say “Ban cop killer bullets!” (no such thing) or "Ban assault “Ban Automatic weapons!” (which are, for most puroposes, already banned) then I can say they are trying to pass laws out of wilful ignorance. When gun advocates call anyone that is looking for a way to make our public spaces safer “gun grabbers”, then I can say that they have little interest in a productive conversation. ---
**Author:** ![g8rguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/7cd45c/32.png) [@g8rguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/g8rguy)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2017, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-gun-bill/803826/210 "2017-12-27T17:04:12Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > When gun advocates call anyone that is looking for a way to make our public spaces safer “gun grabbers”, then I can say that they have little interest in a productive conversation. I mean, seriously, it’s terminology that you are complaining about. You may as well get your ire up about people that use “literally” to mean figuratively. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2017, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-gun-bill/803826/211 "2017-12-27T17:10:56Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > So, it’s just 100 kids per year. Not something that we should even think about. No reason to ask people to be responsible with their guns. No need for any safety or for them to properly lock them up. > > When gun advocates call anyone that is looking for a way to make our public spaces safer “gun grabbers”, then I can say that they have little interest in a productive conversation. The NRA preaches responsible gun safety loudly and constantly. > **[Eddie Eagle GunSafe® Program](https://eddieeagle.nra.org/)** > > The Eddie Eagle GunSafe® Program is a gun accident prevention program that seeks to help parents, law enforcement, community groups and educators navigate a topic paramount to our children’s safety. Eddie and his Wing Team are on a mission to help... Well, sure, I would like you to come up with a way to make public spaces more safe. Unfortunately, in American,\* gun control laws simply do not do so. \* Gun nuts buy too many guns often out of a feeling that doing so will make them safer. Gun grabbers try to ban those guns out of a feeling that doing so will make \*them \*safer. I am not a fan of either side. But since the gun nuts are not harming anyone, I want to let them have their hobby, instead of putting them in prison. Just like I am not a fan of abortion, but I let the woman carrying the fetus choose. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2017, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-gun-bill/803826/212 "2017-12-27T17:17:50Z")
> [@BlueMerle](#): > > No, but they can make them obey Ohio laws with respect to CC. But they cannot make them get the training required to carry in Ohio, once again, you completely ignore my point. > [@](#): > > Does Ohio currently have any authority to enforce a set of standards on Missouri for CC? No, but if this goes through, then Ohio does not have the authority to enforce a set of standards on Ohio for CC. > [@](#): > > You seem to want to make that the case. How is that? I am not saying anything about what misouri should accept, you (well, the bill you are advocating for) are demanding what Ohio should accept. If you have managed to twist my meaning that Ohio should have authority over Missouri, you are very confused. > [@DrDeth](#): > > No, and why would anyone do that? When you drive your car into another state, you have to obey all\* their\* traffic laws\*. You dont have to requalify to get a drivers license for each state. > > - I come from CA where right turn on Red is Ok, but I can’t do that in other states just becuase I am from CA. There are states with different types of restrictions on them. You can drive in Idaho at 15, but you can’t in Ohio. The reason that there is (voluntary) reciprocity between states is that they all have relatively similar levels of requirements in order to get a license. If there were a state that had “shall issue” licenses to anyone over 16, then other states may not accept those liscensensed in that state to operate a motor vehicle in theirs, until they have demonstrated the required skills. ---
**Author:** ![Rutherford\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/71e660/32.png) [@Rutherford\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rutherford_B)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2017, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-gun-bill/803826/213 "2017-12-27T17:20:52Z")
Enforce the gun laws we already have. Make the penalties so stiff for felons possessing a gun that the felons will be scared to get caught with a gun. Just today I am reading about a guy arrested in March for being a felon in possession of a gun and 9 months later the thug commits 2 murders with a gun. Many thugs have long rap sheets of crimes with a gun yet they are still walking the streets unless they actually murder someone. Armed robbery is considered a minor crime today. ---
**Author:** ![BlueMerle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a87d85/32.png) [@BlueMerle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlueMerle)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2017, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-gun-bill/803826/214 "2017-12-27T17:30:11Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > But they cannot make them get the training required to carry in Ohio, once again, you completely ignore my point. I didn’t ignore your point, to the contrary, I answered your question and pointed out what Ohio could do. > [@k9bfriender](#): > > No, but if this goes through, then Ohio does not have the authority to enforce a set of standards on Ohio for CC. Again, not true. Ohio will always have the ability to enforce a set of standards on their citizens. They just won’t ever have the authority to do the same for citizens of other states. What they can do for anyone within their borders is require them to obey Ohio laws. Whether we’re talking about guns, driving, transporting hazardous material or anything else. > [@k9bfriender](#): > > How is that? I am not saying anything about what misouri should accept, you (well, the bill you are advocating for) are demanding what Ohio should accept. Every state in the union is forced to accept standards imposed by other states. This is nothing new. You just don’t like this because it’s about guns. > [@k9bfriender](#): > > If you have managed to twist my meaning that Ohio should have authority over Missouri, you are very confused. I get you didn’t care for my post upstream, you’ve made that clear. I’ve tried to ignore your thinly veiled insults but you persist. We’ll accomplish more if you let this go. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2017, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-gun-bill/803826/215 "2017-12-27T17:39:41Z")
> [@BlueMerle](#): > > No, but they can make them obey Ohio laws with respect to CC. How will Ohio enforce the requirements that an Ohio resident must meet to gain that CCR when they encounter a person from another state with less stringent requirements? If they cannot enforce that requirement, then how can they make someone obey Ohio laws with respect to CCR? > [@BlueMerle](#): > > Does Ohio currently have any authority to enforce a set of standards on Missouri for CC? > > You seem to want to make that the case. Why shouldn’t Ohio be able to insist on it’s state standards for everyone in the state, regardless of residency? ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2017, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-gun-bill/803826/216 "2017-12-27T17:40:24Z")
> [@g8rguy](#): > > I mean, seriously, it’s terminology that you are complaining about. You may as well get your ire up about people that use “literally” to mean figuratively. Nice, it is almost as if being dismissing of someone because they called a weapon that can sustain a high rate of fire with good accuracy an “assault weapon” is the same as pointing out that using disparaging language towards your interlocutors is a poor form of debate. Or, maybe it’s not, in which case, your post is more than just a bit off the mark there. > [@DrDeth](#): > > The NRA preaches responsible gun safety loudly and constantly. > > [https://eddieeagle.nra.org/](https://eddieeagle.nra.org/) Sure, they preach. But they also preach about the evil librus [coming to take their guns and comes about as close as you can get to openly advocating violence against liberals](https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/onpolitics/2017/06/30/controversial-nra-video/441506001/) as you can get without crossing the lines of a call to action. > [@](#): > > Well, sure, I would like you to come up with a way to make public spaces more safe. Unfortunately, in American,\* gun control laws simply do not do so. > \* We are not talking about gun control laws, we are talking about concealed carry laws, and the state’s ability to write and enforce them. > [@](#): > > Gun nuts buy too many guns often out of a feeling that doing so will make them safer. Gun grabbers try to ban those guns out of a feeling that doing so will make \*them \*safer. > > I am not a fan of either side. But since the gun nuts are not harming anyone, I want to let them have their hobby, instead of putting them in prison. I would take quite a bit of exception to the underlined. Gun nuts do in fact harm people. Do I need to link to some of the latest mass shootings? > [@](#): > > Just like I am not a fan of abortion, but I let the woman carrying the fetus choose. I don’t think that analogy holds, unless fetuses have the ability to injure or kill people outside of the woman that is carrying them. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2017, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-gun-bill/803826/217 "2017-12-27T17:43:17Z")
I think what they are saying is that once you have a CC, then Ohio can regulate what those CC holders can do in Ohio, both citizens and visitors. But Ohio can’t change the requirements that out of state visitors need to fulfill to GET the CC in their own state. Just as if Ohio made it a law that everyone in Ohio must attend 52 weeks of driver’s training to get a driver’s license. They cannot force that requirement on other states. And that law would have no bearing on visitors to Ohio who already HAD a driver’s license. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2017, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-gun-bill/803826/218 "2017-12-27T17:46:40Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > … Why shouldn’t Ohio be able to insist on it’s state standards for everyone in the state, regardless of residency? If the proposed legislation passes, I believe the answer is because doing so would affect interstate commerce. > [@](#): > > [“§ 926D. Reciprocity for the carrying of certain concealed firearms > “(a) Notwithstanding any provision of the law of any State or political subdivision thereof (except as provided in subsection (b)) and subject only to the requirements of this section, a person who is not prohibited by Federal law from possessing, transporting, shipping, or receiving a firearm, who is carrying a valid identification document containing a photograph of the person, and who is carrying a valid license or permit which is issued pursuant to the law of a State and which permits the person to carry a concealed firearm or is entitled to carry a concealed firearm in the State in which the person resides, may possess or carry a concealed handgun (other than a machinegun or destructive device) **that has been shipped or transported in interstate or foreign commerce** , in any State that…](https://www.congress.gov/bill/115th-congress/house-bill/38/text) ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2017, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-gun-bill/803826/219 "2017-12-27T17:50:43Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > How will Ohio enforce the requirements that an Ohio resident must meet to gain that CCR when they encounter a person from another state with less stringent requirements? > > If they cannot enforce that requirement, then how can they make someone obey Ohio laws with respect to CCR? > Why shouldn’t Ohio be able to insist on it’s state standards for everyone in the state, regardless of residency? Becuase then the whole idea of the bill will fail,just like if you were stopped at each state border and would need to pass that state’s drivers license test and your car for their safety laws. In some states, more or less you cant qualify for a CCW. See, CCW rules are based entirely on politics not actual safety considerations. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2017, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-gun-bill/803826/220 "2017-12-27T17:52:17Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > … Sure, they preach. But they also preach about the evil librus [coming to take their guns and comes about as close as you can get to openly advocating violence against liberals](https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/onpolitics/2017/06/30/controversial-nra-video/441506001/) as you can get without crossing the lines of a call to action. … I don’t think you are very well-versed in 1st Amendment jurisprudence if you think that video “comes about as close as you can get to openly advocating violence against liberals”. They could get a whole lot closer, legally, than “fight this violence of lies with the clenched fist of truth”. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-gun-bill/803826.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-gun-bill/803826.md?page=12)