# House passes Gun Bill **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 7, 2017, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-gun-bill/803826 "2017-12-07T20:06:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2017, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-gun-bill/803826/301 "2017-12-28T21:14:49Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > No, it is not. He’s claiming a fact that is not recognized by law. Just like if I assert that every American has a right to health care, I would be wrong, even if the Supreme Court hasn’t ruled on that specific issue. Could they some day? Sure. Would they go my way? Maybe, maybe not. But as a factual matter, Americans do not have a right to health care. > > Once again: there is no right without a corresponding legal remedy. There is no legal remedy, so there is no right. So where do I say there is a constitutional right to concealed carry? > [@](#): > > For all the times I see anti-gunners accused of saying things that are not right in order to advance an agenda, you can’t recofnize similar behavior from pro-gunners? I think this is another one of those “not right” things you guys say. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2017, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-gun-bill/803826/302 "2017-12-28T21:15:17Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Becuase that was held to be unconstitutional. And many such caes were expunged or reversed. > > after all, Lawrence and Garner were arrested and convicted. But their conviction was overturned. True, but if someday laws that regulate heroin use are found to be unconstitutional, it doesn’t mean we’ve always had the right to shoot heroin, does it? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2017, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-gun-bill/803826/303 "2017-12-28T21:16:16Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > How can you say you have the right to do something if you get jailed for doing it? Black men had the right to marry white women even if they went to jail for it in Alabama. Except New Jersey is today’s Alabama. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2017, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-gun-bill/803826/304 "2017-12-28T21:18:21Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Not in so many words, true. I was trying not to say it at all. Only that some sort of carry was required. But I generally agree that concealed carry of some sort ought to be a right. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2017, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-gun-bill/803826/305 "2017-12-28T21:19:23Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Black men had the right to marry white women even if they went to jail for it in Alabama. Except New Jersey is today’s Alabama. So, they didn’t in fact have the right in Alabama to marry white women. If they did, they wouldn’t have gone to jail. Or perhaps, they did have the right, and they went to jail because someone was trampling on those rights? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2017, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-gun-bill/803826/306 "2017-12-28T21:19:27Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Get you to say? I simply asked what you thought. You could have answered either way. But you now agree that some sort of carry right is constitutionally required? ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2017, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-gun-bill/803826/307 "2017-12-28T21:20:36Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > I was trying not to say it at all. Only that some sort of carry was required. That’s cool. So if the whole country went “Open Carry” any time at all, you would be satisfied with that? You wouldn’t want to see “Concealed Carry” legalized as well? ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2017, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-gun-bill/803826/308 "2017-12-28T21:22:14Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > But you now agree that some sort of carry right is constitutionally required? I’ve always agreed with that. I can see how openly carrying a gun around fulfills the rights of keeping and bearing arms. I just don’t see how \*\*concealed \*\*carry is a right found in the 2nd Amendment. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2017, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-gun-bill/803826/309 "2017-12-28T21:23:54Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > No, they did not, because they were punished for doing so. > > If you get punished for doing something, it isn’t a right. That’s as clear as black and white. > > eta: the Second Amendment does indeed provide rights, but your comments on Heller are not correct. DC residents were generally prohibited from owning pistols; now they are not. > > The idea that people can be in jail for excercosing their rights is a mockery of the whole concept of rights. I think this is one of the disconnects I see between my conservative and liberal friends. Conservatives think that the constitution and the government recognizes and protects pre-existing rights (natural law type stuff) while liberals think that rights come from the government. I think its a matter of perspective. What good is a theoretical right that you can never exercise (after all even North Korea has a bill of rights) on the other hand if its given to you by government then the government can rightfully take it away. Me? I just hope that we can preserve our democracy in a form that these questions never become more than theoretically relevant. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2017, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-gun-bill/803826/310 "2017-12-28T21:25:34Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > So, they didn’t in fact have the right in Alabama to marry white women. If they did, they wouldn’t have gone to jail. > > Or perhaps, they did have the right, and they went to jail because someone was trampling on those rights? Yes I think that Virginia (and I should have said Virginia) was trampling on those rights. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2017, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-gun-bill/803826/311 "2017-12-28T21:26:42Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > So where do I say there is a constitutional right to concealed carry? > [@](#): > > The right to carry in an enumerated right. Do you think the right goes away because its concealed carry? What kind of retarded distinction are you trying to make? (spelling error in the original) ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2017, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-gun-bill/803826/312 "2017-12-28T21:27:05Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > That’s cool. So if the whole country went “Open Carry” any time at all, you would be satisfied with that? You wouldn’t want to see “Concealed Carry” legalized as well? I would WANT it but I don’t think I would have as strong a constitutional argument that the 2nd amendment was being violated. I would probably still want someone to try. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2017, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-gun-bill/803826/313 "2017-12-28T21:28:27Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Conservatives think that the constitution and the government recognizes and protects pre-existing rights (natural law type stuff) Sure is strange that those rights don’t include “Marry who you want” and “Have sex with who you want” ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2017, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-gun-bill/803826/314 "2017-12-28T21:28:46Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > I’ve always agreed with that. I can see how openly carrying a gun around fulfills the rights of keeping and bearing arms. I just don’t see how \*\*concealed \*\*carry is a right found in the 2nd Amendment. I think either one will satisfy the requirement. I think concealed does it better because most people who carry will do so concealed for a multitude of reasons. I think SCOTUS could find concealed to be constitutionally required for the same reason they found handguns required, its how most people like to exercise that particular right. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2017, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-gun-bill/803826/315 "2017-12-28T21:29:34Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > I would WANT it but I don’t think I would have as strong a constitutional argument that the 2nd amendment was being violated. I would probably still want someone to try. Seems like you wouldn’t have any sort of constitutional argument, but whatever. Fair enough. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2017, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-gun-bill/803826/316 "2017-12-28T21:33:14Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Seems like you wouldn’t have any sort of constitutional argument, but whatever. Fair enough. The Courts disagree: They may do so: [http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/09/29...rt-agenda.html](http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/09/29...rt-agenda.html) [Bloomberg - Are you a robot?](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic)…-supreme-court \* On July 25, a divided three-judge panel of the U.S. Court of Appeals for the D.C. Circuit struck down Washington’s tough local restriction on who can obtain a permit to carry a concealed handgun in public. The ruling conflicted with those of four other intermediate courts of appeal that in recent years have upheld regulations limiting what’s known as “concealed carry.” Resolving such conflicts among the lower courts is one of the Supreme Court’s main responsibilities, and the D.C. case would provide a suitable vehicle for addressing the degree to which the Second Amendment protects an individual’s right to carry a gun outside the home.\* So, it is up to SCOTUS, but at least one U.S. Court of Appeals agrees that citizens have _some_ sort of right to carry concealed. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2017, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-gun-bill/803826/317 "2017-12-28T21:34:21Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > (spelling error in the original) I continue by saying: “The universe of carry can be divided into concealed carry and open carry. The laws regarding open are significantly more lax in most states than laws regarding concealed carry. Congress chose to provide reciprocity for more regulated of the two.” It should be clear to most people that I am talking about the right to carry in some form. So in the context of the entire post rather than just your cherry picked sentence, do you think I am saying that concealed carry specifically is required by the constitution or that some sort of carry (which could be concealed carry) is required by the constitution? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2017, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-gun-bill/803826/318 "2017-12-28T21:35:37Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Sure is strange that those rights don’t include “Marry who you want” and “Have sex with who you want” Well, conservatives can be real douchebags. (see Trump) ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2017, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-gun-bill/803826/319 "2017-12-28T22:21:32Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > I continue by saying: > > “The universe of carry can be divided into concealed carry and open carry. The laws regarding open are significantly more lax in most states than laws regarding concealed carry. Congress chose to provide reciprocity for more regulated of the two.” > > It should be clear to most people that I am talking about the right to carry in some form. So in the context of the entire post rather than just your cherry picked sentence, do you think I am saying that concealed carry specifically is required by the constitution or that some sort of carry (which could be concealed carry) is required by the constitution? I see a problem with open carry- it will give some bad cops even more reason to harrass and even possibly shoot minority males. ---
**Author:** ![Unpronounceable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/9de0a6/32.png) [@Unpronounceable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unpronounceable)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2017, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-gun-bill/803826/320 "2017-12-29T00:50:52Z")
Even in those states which allow open-carry, you get idiots calling the cops because people “are brandishing” (i.e. have holstered) weapons. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-gun-bill/803826.md?page=15) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-gun-bill/803826.md?page=17)