# House passes Gun Bill **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 7, 2017, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-gun-bill/803826 "2017-12-07T20:06:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2017, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-gun-bill/803826/41 "2017-12-08T18:34:32Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > What compelling need is there for carrying concealed weapons across state lines? > > Perhaps folks who are afraid to go to Starbucks without a hidden weapon are even more fearful of interstate travel. The whole thing is absurd. > > Shooting citizens of other state can be hazardous to ones financial health. > > Crane There can be challenges when crossing state lines when some states have much more stringent firearms laws than others. The case of the man whose connecting flight in Newark was cancelled, and had to get his luggage, and was then arrested for the firearm he had legally checked. Other states alter the requirements for where one can have a gun in the car, in the trunk, loaded or unloaded, separate locked container, separated from ammo, etc. As a hunter I regularly check the laws when flying to make sure I don’t change planes in a state that will drop a felony on me. So anything that cleans this up is appreciated as a traveler. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2017, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-gun-bill/803826/42 "2017-12-08T18:50:07Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > What compelling need is there for carrying concealed weapons across state lines? Do you believe there exists a compelling need for carrying concealed weapons within one’s own state? If the answer to that is no, then the answer to the across state lines is irrelevant. If the answer is yes, then apply that everywhere a person may travel. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2017, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-gun-bill/803826/43 "2017-12-08T19:20:52Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > As I have said several times already, I don’t believe this reflects how the clause has been used ever before. Reciprocity of drivers licenses, admissions to the bar, cosmetology licenses, and so on are not Federally regulated to direct reciprocity - each state sets its laws and isn’t compelled to accept other states’ licenses unless they want to. > > Can you name other licenses or permits that the Federal government has required reciprocity on the authority the FFC clause, and not the Commerce Clause? Marriage licenses. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2017, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-gun-bill/803826/44 "2017-12-08T19:26:47Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > So the caveat that this argument rests upon is that the firearm being carried must have been involved in interstate commerce, therefore Congress can regulate state laws about permits to carry such weapons. > > If Congress can use the commerce clause as it pertains to objects, can it then sally forth and make laws overriding the police power of all states so long as such objects are somehow involved? For example, can Congress mandate that everyone in the United States must carry a gun, so long as the guns were somehow involved in interstate commerce? > > ETA: and let me be clear here, I think striking down the gun free school zone law was entirely reasonable. Just because schools use books that were once in interstate commerce, and guns are plausibly related to interstate commerce, doesn’t mean Congress has plenary authority to make arbitrary rules to override state laws on those two items. But would you agree that the mere travel between states of an individual is not necessarily an act of interstate commerce? I think the supremacy clause allows this if the intent of congress is clear to override state laws. [Federal preemption - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_preemption) ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2017, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-gun-bill/803826/45 "2017-12-08T19:28:31Z")
> [@Algher](#): > > There can be challenges when crossing state lines when some states have much more stringent firearms laws than others. The case of the man whose connecting flight in Newark was cancelled, and had to get his luggage, and was then arrested for the firearm he had legally checked. Other states alter the requirements for where one can have a gun in the car, in the trunk, loaded or unloaded, separate locked container, separated from ammo, etc. As a hunter I regularly check the laws when flying to make sure I don’t change planes in a state that will drop a felony on me. > > So anything that cleans this up is appreciated as a traveler. This. Someone driving 200 miles or so on the east coast could find themselves in Virginia, the District of Columbia, Maryland, Delaware, Pennsylvania, New Jersey and New York. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2017, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-gun-bill/803826/46 "2017-12-08T19:29:00Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > What compelling need is there for carrying concealed weapons across state lines? > > Perhaps folks who are afraid to go to Starbucks without a hidden weapon are even more fearful of interstate travel. The whole thing is absurd. > > Shooting citizens of other state can be hazardous to ones financial health. > > Crane I am not with the “compelling need” test is in the legal analysis. Which constitutional principle is that associated with? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2017, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-gun-bill/803826/47 "2017-12-08T19:34:38Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Marriage licenses. What Federal law deals with marriage licenses? I don’t know of any. And when I did a word search in Obergefell v. Hodges, the words “Full Faith and Credit” do not appear anywhere. > [@](#): > > I think the supremacy clause allows this if the intent of congress is clear to override state laws. [Federal preemption - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_preemption) But Congress can’t simply decide to override state laws if it is not within the power of Congress to legislate on the topic in the first place. When I look at your cite, this quote appears to bear this out: “If a federal law contains an express pre-emption clause, it does not immediately end the inquiry because the question of the substance and scope of Congress’ displacement of state law still remains.” Altria Group v. Good ETA: let me ask, aren’t you a lawyer? ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2017, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-gun-bill/803826/48 "2017-12-08T19:39:53Z")
Sorry, I was too general. Transport of encased weapons across state lines does meet a need for hunters and sportsmen. Allowing such weapons to be concealed makes sense and avoids the gun rack syndrome. Weapons that are carried concealed on ones person do not serve a useful purpose and should not be carried across state lines. A concealed weapon cannot be used defensively. Crane ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2017, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-gun-bill/803826/49 "2017-12-08T19:48:41Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > A concealed weapon cannot be used defensively. Is this supposed to be an absurd nitpick that one must actually remove the weapon from concealment before it is most effective? ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2017, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-gun-bill/803826/50 "2017-12-08T19:49:24Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > This. Someone driving 200 miles or so on the east coast could find themselves in Virginia, the District of Columbia, Maryland, Delaware, Pennsylvania, New Jersey and New York. Sounds like they need a GPS, not a CCW. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2017, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-gun-bill/803826/51 "2017-12-08T20:03:39Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > Do you believe there exists a compelling need for carrying concealed weapons within one’s own state? If the answer to that is no, then the answer to the across state lines is irrelevant. If the answer is yes, then apply that everywhere a person may travel. Well, let’s put it this way: we’ve been in the current situation as regards reciprocity for many decades now. Tell us of the tragedies that have occurred that this legislation would have prevented, if it had been enacted years earlier. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2017, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-gun-bill/803826/52 "2017-12-08T20:04:31Z")
Hardly When faced by an armed aggressor reaching for a weapon will get you killed. Appearing to reach for a weapon will get you killed. Crane ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2017, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-gun-bill/803826/53 "2017-12-08T20:05:13Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > What Federal law deals with marriage licenses? I don’t know of any. > > And when I did a word search in Obergefell v. Hodges, the words “Full Faith and Credit” do not appear anywhere. I think DOMA was in part a response to the full faith and credit argument. > [@](#): > > But Congress can’t simply decide to override state laws if it is not within the power of Congress to legislate on the topic in the first place. I don’t think a lot falls into that category. > [@](#): > > When I look at your cite, this quote appears to bear this out: “If a federal law contains an express pre-emption clause, it does not immediately end the inquiry because the question of the substance and scope of Congress’ displacement of state law still remains.” Altria Group v. Good And you think there is any doubt about congress’ intent here? > [@](#): > > ETA: let me ask, aren’t you a lawyer? Yes, but I am a tax lawyer so your opinion is probably as good as mine. I went to law school before the Lopez case. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2017, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-gun-bill/803826/54 "2017-12-08T20:10:14Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > Sorry, I was too general. > > Transport of encased weapons across state lines does meet a need for hunters and sportsmen. Allowing such weapons to be concealed makes sense and avoids the gun rack syndrome. Gun rack syndrome? There is already a federal “interstate transport in firearms act” that allows people to transport firearms from one place where they may legally possess the firearms to another place where they may legally possess the firearms as long as they cannot readily access the firearms during the transport (usually you put it in your trunk). So this isn’t really a concern except some state agencies seem to go ahead and arrest you anyway. > [@](#): > > Weapons that are carried concealed on ones person do not serve a useful purpose and should not be carried across state lines. > > A concealed weapon cannot be used defensively. Can you restate that, it doesn’t make sense to me. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2017, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-gun-bill/803826/55 "2017-12-08T20:14:21Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Sounds like they need a GPS, not a CCW. You can avoid DC and Pennsylvania if you are going to NYC. But a straight line route can take you through DC and Pennsylvania, especially if you are trying to avoid tolls. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2017, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-gun-bill/803826/56 "2017-12-08T20:17:51Z")
I have asked avid concealed carriers how they imagine they will use their weapon. Most have no idea beyond ‘I will defend myself against a man with a gum’. That’s pure nonsense. If the other guy is holding a weapon, it’s too late to access yours. Please describe an engagement where a concealed weapon could be used defensively. Crane ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2017, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-gun-bill/803826/57 "2017-12-08T20:41:41Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > Weapons that are carried concealed on ones person do not serve a useful purpose and should not be carried across state lines. > > A concealed weapon cannot be used defensively. > > Crane This is what I was expecting. Your disagreement is about concealed carry in general, not about reciprocity. Currently, the LEOSA allows for certain people including retired police officers that have completed the appropriate paperwork to carry concealed weapons in all 50 states in the union. Is it your contention that these folks cannot use their concealed weapons defensively? ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2017, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-gun-bill/803826/58 "2017-12-08T20:47:52Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > This is what I was expecting. Your disagreement is about concealed carry in general, not about reciprocity. Currently, the LEOSA allows for certain people including retired police officers that have completed the appropriate paperwork to carry concealed weapons in all 50 states in the union. Is it your contention that these folks cannot use their concealed weapons defensively? I know that we’ve disagreed on the point in the past, but I do agree with Crane here in that I do not see how a gun can be used to defend yourself, if someone already has a gun pointed at your head. We can go back and forth, and I know that I cannot prove that a gun can never be used defensively in that situation (for instance, if the person holding a gun at you actually posed no danger, wasn’t actually going to shoot, gun not loaded, or even not a real gun), but at the same time, you cannot demonstrate a set of actions that will use your gun to successfully defend yourself against someone that is actually posing you a threat, and willing to kill you to take your money. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2017, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-gun-bill/803826/59 "2017-12-08T20:51:38Z")
A gun the Bad Guy can’t see won’t deter him, either. ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2017, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-gun-bill/803826/60 "2017-12-08T20:53:02Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > Please describe an engagement where a concealed weapon could be used defensively. > > Crane Your sitting in the local Country Kitchen Buffet enjoying lunch with your co-workers. A wild-eyed crazy person drives his car through the front window, jumps out and starts shooting people. You pull your Glock from your shoulder holster, and calmly blow his fucking head off. > **[Luby's shooting](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luby%27s_shooting)** > > The Luby's shooting, also known as the Luby's massacre, was a mass shooting that took place on October 16, 1991, at a Luby's Cafeteria in Killeen, Texas. The perpetrator, George Hennard, drove his pickup truck through the front window of the restaurant before opening fire, killing 23 people and wounding 27 others. Hennard had a brief shootout with police in which he was seriously wounded but refused their orders to surrender and eventually killed himself. > The shooting was the deadliest mass shoo... [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-gun-bill/803826.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-gun-bill/803826.md?page=4)