# House passes "repeal and replace" **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 4, 2017, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-repeal-and-replace/785871 "2017-05-04T20:53:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2017, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-repeal-and-replace/785871/201 "2017-05-05T01:02:56Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > That’s not my argument. I was answering the question by suggesting the motives were the same. That is, the motive for Obama’s lie was identical to the motives animating the current Republican lie. You’re asking a new question: even if Obama lied, shouldn’t Republicans still choose not to lie? > > Yes, they should, but considering the presumptive leader of the party is a liar on a scale that no politician in the modern age ever dreamed of, I don’t see it happening. And because it results in an outcome you favor anyway, apparently you can’t find much fire in your heart to criticize the method this time… ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2017, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-repeal-and-replace/785871/202 "2017-05-05T01:07:32Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > I agree. It was wrong of him to make a promise he could not keep. > > But on the scale of things right and wrong, it was nowhere near a wrong as this: > > As for this: > > I’m not Christian. Don’t even believe in god. But I do believe in a more just society. **So I would gladly see my taxes go towards making sure your healthcare, and that of your loved ones would remain protected from people like you.** Well you’d also apparently be glad to see HIS taxes go towards that outcome too, and Steve’s down the road. His point (I think) is that he has a problem with you being so generous with anyone else’s resources. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2017, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-repeal-and-replace/785871/203 "2017-05-05T01:08:46Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > It certainly was. > > But then again the way the original Obamacare was passed was also dishonest, although if I had to purely subjectively rank the relative dishonesty I’d say 3 out of 10 for the original and 7 out of ten for the current effort. …And because it results in an outcome you favor anyway, apparently you can’t find much fire in your heart to criticize the method this time… ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2017, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-repeal-and-replace/785871/204 "2017-05-05T01:13:30Z")
> [@Okrahoma](#): > > So - why can’t it be implemented on state level? In some state where people genuinely and votingly want it very much? Instead of forcing it on people in states that don’t? Your repeated question has now been answered twice. Choosing to ignore the answers does nothing to help your case. You pointed out yourself that Vermont tried and failed. We’re supposed to be left with the impression that therefore single-payer and/or UHC can’t work, yet every civilized country on earth has made it work, and as I pointed out, every single Canadian province implemented its own separate single-payer system, all of which have been highly successful and saved a great deal of money. And none of them were “forced” to do it. Each and every one could either choose to do it under federal guidelines and cost-sharing agreements, or go their own way with private insurance or whatever they thought was better. ---
**Author:** ![Okrahoma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90db22/32.png) [@Okrahoma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Okrahoma)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2017, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-repeal-and-replace/785871/205 "2017-05-05T01:14:53Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > Your repeated question has now been answered twice. Choosing to ignore the answers does nothing to help your case. You pointed out yourself that Vermont tried and failed. Vermont is a tiny state. Why can’t California try it? Huge state. Enormous economy. Very liberal, right? ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2017, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-repeal-and-replace/785871/206 "2017-05-05T01:18:41Z")
> [@Okrahoma](#): > > If your objection is the economies of scale - we have pretty big states out there. If something doesn’t work in California, it probably won’t work when scaled up to the US level. That’s not a bad idea. California would love to oblige your experimental spirit, but their Republicans keep shooting it down. Anyhow, it makes no sense to try it in a single state. As states have no lawful authority to control immigration, they have no means of protecting themselves from free riders from the rest of the country. [Republican states already soak up way more than their share of tax revenues](https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2014/05/which-states-are-givers-and-which-are-takers/361668/), so why should California support these moochers any more than it already does? ---
**Author:** ![sachertorte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sachertorte/32/3727_2.png) [@sachertorte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sachertorte)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2017, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-repeal-and-replace/785871/207 "2017-05-05T01:19:57Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I don’t reciprocate. I think that I should pay to keep my family in good shape, and you cover yours. Just like you pay for your clothes and your kid’s Xbox and I pay for my clothes and my kid’s Xbox. I don’t think you understand how insurance works. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2017, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-repeal-and-replace/785871/208 "2017-05-05T01:20:46Z")
> [@DSYoungEsq](#): > > I will point out that this is a false analogy. Hint: Health is not an Xbox, or even clothes. I think that on a qualitative level, **Bricker** would disagree with that assertion. Ironically, perhaps, the ability of strong labor unions a couple of generations ago, to negotiate health insurance benefits may have contributed to the commodification of basic healthcare. _Especially_ ironic in light of the greatly weakened state of labor unions today. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2017, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-repeal-and-replace/785871/209 "2017-05-05T01:20:51Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > That’s not a bad idea. California would love to oblige your experimental spirit, but their Republicans keep shooting it down. Democrats have a supermajority in both houses in the CA legislature and the Governor’s seat. Republicans aren’t shooting anything down in CA. ---
**Author:** ![Okrahoma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90db22/32.png) [@Okrahoma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Okrahoma)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2017, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-repeal-and-replace/785871/210 "2017-05-05T01:22:59Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > That’s not a bad idea. California would love to oblige your experimental spirit, but their Republicans keep shooting it down. CA Senate: 27 D, 13 R CA Assembly: 55 D, 25 R Last time California had a R legislative majority: 1970. > [@](#): > > Anyhow, it makes no sense to try it in a single state. As states have no lawful authority to control immigration, they have no means of protecting themselves from free riders from the rest of the country. Sure they do. Make residency a requirement for “free” medical treatment. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2017, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-repeal-and-replace/785871/211 "2017-05-05T01:25:23Z")
> [@Okrahoma](#): > > Vermont is a tiny state. Why can’t California try it? Huge state. Enormous economy. Very liberal, right? > [@Bone](#): > > Democrats have a supermajority in both houses in the CA legislature and the Governor’s seat. Republicans aren’t shooting anything down in CA. Cool: > [@](#): > > Enter Senate Bill 562, the Healthy California Act, which promises to create universal health care in the state and which easily passed its first major legislative hurdle last week. > > The bill would establish a publicly run health plan that would cover everyone living in California — all 39 million of us — regardless of immigration status. Co-authored by San Francisco’s own, state Sen. Scott Wiener and Assemblymember David Chiu (among others), the proposal would pay for all medical expenses, including inpatient, outpatient, emergency services, dental, vision, mental health, substance abuse treatment, acupuncture and chiropractic care. > > SOURCE: [Universal health care becomes a real possibility in the Golden State](http://www.sfexaminer.com/universal-health-care-becomes-real-possibility-golden-state/), May 4, 2017 ---
**Author:** ![Okrahoma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90db22/32.png) [@Okrahoma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Okrahoma)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2017, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-repeal-and-replace/785871/212 "2017-05-05T01:26:52Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Cool: Which proves my point. CA would be doing it right. Instead of trying to force square pegs into round holes. And if this succeeds in CA, it would be a great example to the other states, wouldn’t it be? Too bad that if this fails, the liberal excuse will probably be “It failed because it was only in one state. Should be US-wide.” ---
**Author:** ![storyteller0910](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecae2f/32.png) [@storyteller0910](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/storyteller0910)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2017, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-repeal-and-replace/785871/213 "2017-05-05T01:27:28Z")
Bricker’s arguments in this thread, which are clear and simple, illustrate the essential problem with this debate, and the ridiculousness of discussing it at all. Once a man makes it clear that he does not view reducing the impact of death and morbidity as a worthwhile goal for a society, what conversation is left to be had? If we disagree on such a basic premise, what basis do we have to even approach compromise or mutually satisfactory outcomes? I mean, it’s fine for people like Bricker and people like me to talk past each other on a message board, but neither of us will ever be persuaded. What happens now is, we see whether more people agree with me or with him. I have to hope that most people agree with me, because the alternative - that the majority of people are foolish enough to think that reducing death and morbidity is not a worthwhile use of our resources - is too profoundly sad to contemplate. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2017, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-repeal-and-replace/785871/214 "2017-05-05T01:27:29Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Should we not provide food inspection? That’s health. To whom is this argument directed? Obviously, there’s no point in directing it at Bricker (who has already rejected it with the “well, society functioned before X existed” universal counterargument). ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2017, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-repeal-and-replace/785871/215 "2017-05-05T01:28:42Z")
> [@Okrahoma](#): > > Which proves my point. CA would be doing it right. Instead of trying to force square pegs into round holes. > > And if this succeeds in CA, it would be a great example to the other states, wouldn’t it be? Why can California legally force their citizens to pay for this but the federal government can’t? ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2017, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-repeal-and-replace/785871/216 "2017-05-05T01:28:52Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > No Democrat is going to vote for cloture on this, so it fails the 60 vote Senate test. If that’s still a thing, by the time it reaches the Senate floor. Side point: AIUI, certain aspects of the prior bill made it ineligible for consideration as a reconciliation matter, which I have been given to understand does not require a cloture battle. Presuming my understanding is correct, is the current bill also ineligible for such treatment? ---
**Author:** ![Okrahoma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90db22/32.png) [@Okrahoma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Okrahoma)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2017, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-repeal-and-replace/785871/217 "2017-05-05T01:30:56Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Why can California legally force their citizens to pay for this but the federal government can’t? Ask **Bricker** , he explained it several times in this thread already, maybe he’ll do it again. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2017, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-repeal-and-replace/785871/218 "2017-05-05T01:32:49Z")
> [@Okrahoma](#): > > Ask **Bricker** , he explained it several times in this thread already, maybe he’ll do it again. I already debunked **Bricker** as have others. Maybe you can give me your reasons. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2017, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-repeal-and-replace/785871/219 "2017-05-05T01:33:44Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Why can California legally force their citizens to pay for this but the federal government can’t? Jesus Christ man, is this still a question? Because some people believe the Constitution doesn’t say the Federal Government can do this. And they believe the states CAN do it. Is it really that hard to understand? ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2017, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-repeal-and-replace/785871/220 "2017-05-05T01:35:58Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Jesus Christ man, is this still a question? Because some people believe the Constitution doesn’t say the Federal Government can do this. And they believe the states CAN do it. Is it really that hard to understand? Jesus Christ man, it is NOT a question any longer. The Supreme Court said they can. End. Of. Story. You can disagree if you want with the Supreme Court but as it is today it is perfectly legal. Is it really that hard to understand? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-repeal-and-replace/785871.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-repeal-and-replace/785871.md?page=12)