# House passes "repeal and replace" **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 4, 2017, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-repeal-and-replace/785871 "2017-05-04T20:53:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![mikecurtis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mikecurtis/32/3284_2.png) [@mikecurtis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mikecurtis)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2017, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-repeal-and-replace/785871/21 "2017-05-04T21:31:43Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I am certainly sorry to hear that people you know may be harmed, but it’s not clear to me why that fact should trump (ha!) all others in a discussion of public policy. If we were to debate mandatory seatbelt laws, you could make the same statement – should I then simply retire from the mandatory seatbelt debate, because you invoked the possible deaths of people you know if your preferred policy is not accepted? you point would have more weight before something like ACA was passed. then you could say the possible harm to some individuals does not outweigh other points. however ACA did pass and is currently the law of the land; so now you and others are advocating change that would actually harm people. it’s all in the timing. if you feel that govt should not be in the health insurance biz, then you have to also address what should be done to ameliorate the harm that will be done by getting out. just hand waving and saying it should never have passed is no longer an option. mc ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2017, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-repeal-and-replace/785871/22 "2017-05-04T21:31:53Z")
Procrustus: > [@](#): > > Go ahead and start the debate. What do you prefer in this policy over ACA? Hopefully, genuine UHC. I wouldn’t expect a Republican administration and Congress to do that, but maybe this is one of those “only Nixon could go to China” situations. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2017, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-repeal-and-replace/785871/23 "2017-05-04T21:32:36Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > In general, I am unpersuaded by the invocation of the U.N., to whom the United States pays roughly $8 billion US every year, far more than other countries. The message from the UN would seem to be along the lines of, “Let us tell you what you’re doing wrong, while you continue to pay us more than all the other ciuntries that are doing it right!” [Politifact](http://www.politifact.com/global-news/statements/2017/feb/01/rob-portman/us-contribution-un-22-percent/) > [@](#): > > All told, the United States provides about $3.3 billion a year to finance U.N. activities. A 40 percent cut would save taxpayers about $1.3 billion out of the current $4.1 trillion U.S. federal budget. The impact on the U.N. would be substantial, although the precise effect would depend on how the cuts are spread around. ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2017, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-repeal-and-replace/785871/24 "2017-05-04T21:34:21Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > My objection to Obamacare has always been one of basic philosophy: I don’t agree that providing everyone with health care is a proper role of government. > > Therefore, I think that it’s wise when we move away from that model, and unwise when we move towards it. In what way does this bill even do that, though? Sounds like the government is just as much involved as before, but doing a worse job of it. It’s as if you’re saying “the government shouldn’t be involved in building roads and bridges” but then supporting a bill that ensures the government will only build dangerous, half-assed, shitty roads and bridges. It doesn’t follow logically from your stated position. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2017, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-repeal-and-replace/785871/25 "2017-05-04T21:36:00Z")
> [@mikecurtis](#): > > you point would have more weight before something like ACA was passed. then you could say the possible harm to some individuals does not outweigh other points. however ACA did pass and is currently the law of the land; so now you and others are advocating change that would actually harm people. > it’s all in the timing. > if you feel that govt should not be in the health insurance biz, then you have to also address what should be done to ameliorate the harm that will be done by getting out. just hand waving and saying it should never have passed is no longer an option. > > mc So this is a one-way rachet, in your view? The plan has passed, and now cannot be undone, because we know people that will be harmed? Horsepuckey, as Colonel Potter famously said. Decisions from the government harm people all the time. I know people that were harmed by the loss of their small business when minimum wages were raised. Did their cries stop the legislation? Public policy decisions cannot be paralyzed by the spectre of Uncle Billy’s harm. They involve the aggregate. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2017, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-repeal-and-replace/785871/26 "2017-05-04T21:40:01Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Do I feel like outlining a comprehensive national approach to health here because you challenged me to “put up or shut up?” > > No. > > But I’ll do it by reference. Let’s restore the system as it existed in the United States on January 20, 2009. Because I’m not talking about “without government involvement.” I’m talking about “without the obligation to pay for health care for everyone who can’t or won’t/” You mean back when I was living on the streets after getting so sick at work because I couldn’t afford basic care? Back when I fought my way back up the ladder, in debt to emergency rooms for many years after, going to work sick or not(and probably infecting others in the process? Those good old days? Those Obamacare rules on preexisting conditions are what allows My Beloved and I to afford her meds and necessary therapy, and the care I need for my own existing problems. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2017, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-repeal-and-replace/785871/27 "2017-05-04T21:40:31Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > In what way does this bill even do that, though? Sounds like the government is just as much involved as before, but doing a worse job of it. No, the government is less involved in this version. Do you really need examples? You don’t have to pay the government a penalty any more if you’re not buying insurance. States may opt out of the “essential health benefits,” bar, which include contraception, also absurd – people certainly have a right to use contraception, but not a right to have it provided for them. There. Two off the top of my head. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2017, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-repeal-and-replace/785871/28 "2017-05-04T21:40:35Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Fifty years ago, the nation managed to navigate itself without adopting the policy that the federal government owed free health care to citizens. Forty years ago, thirty, twenty – still we chugged along. > > Obamacare has been the law now for less than eight years. > > It’s clear to me that government functioned without it. The difference between the [1950s and now.](https://www.griffinbenefits.com/employeebenefitsblog/history-of-employer-sponsored-healthcare) > [@](#): > > The 1950s saw the expansion of healthcare coverage options, as strong labor unions began to bargain for better benefit packages. Major medical plans evolved during this era, with vision care becoming a popular option in 1957 and dental benefits becoming an offering in 1959. > > This created a serious situation for retirees, however. **Because employer-sponsored healthcare had now become the cornerstone of the entire American healthcare system,** health costs fell victim to inflation, and retired Americans found themselves unable to afford private coverage. > > By 1993, Clinton’s plan died in Congress, largely because it was considered too radical an overhaul of the healthcare system. This left the major portion of healthcare still in the hands of employers. **To deal with the growing number of employers who were dropping coverage** because of rampant inflation, the HMO as we know it today was born. ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2017, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-repeal-and-replace/785871/29 "2017-05-04T21:40:53Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Fifty years ago, the nation managed to navigate itself without adopting the policy that the federal government owed free health care to citizens. Forty years ago, thirty, twenty – still we chugged along. Except for the people who didn’t. You know the ones that died, suffered and went bankrupt? I think I know what you’re getting at, but this is a very poor argument for it. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2017, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-repeal-and-replace/785871/30 "2017-05-04T21:41:41Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > You mean back when I was living on the streets after getting so sick at work because I couldn’t afford basic care? Back when I fought my way back up the ladder, in debt to emergency rooms for many years after, going to work sick or not(and probably infecting others in the process? Those good old days? Those Obamacare rules on preexisting conditions are what allows My Beloved and I to afford her meds and necessary therapy, and the care I need for my own existing problems. Why is the rest of the country required to pay for you and your beloved? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2017, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-repeal-and-replace/785871/31 "2017-05-04T21:42:19Z")
**Bricker** , do you have a horse in this race? If Obamacare is repealed, do you stand to lose anything in the way of necessary healthcare? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2017, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-repeal-and-replace/785871/32 "2017-05-04T21:42:31Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Fifty years ago, the nation managed to navigate itself without adopting the policy that the federal government owed free health care to citizens. Forty years ago, thirty, twenty – still we chugged along. With unnecessary pain and death during all those years with the less fortunate. > **[Dying from Lack of Insurance - FactCheck.org](https://www.factcheck.org/2009/09/dying-from-lack-of-insurance/)** > > A new study from researchers with the Harvard Medical School found that 45,000 deaths a year can be attributed to the lack of health insurance. Our readers ask: Really? And, they want to know, isn’t this finding actually from the single-payer... I will go here for the low estimates: > [@](#): > > the Institute of Medicine, basing its work on the Franks study and another examining Current Population Survey data, found that 18,000 people (age 25 to 64) died because they lacked health insurance in 2000. Of course we chug along, they were for many of the Republican leadership expendable. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2017, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-repeal-and-replace/785871/33 "2017-05-04T21:42:48Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > You mean back when I was living on the streets after getting so sick at work because I couldn’t afford basic care? Back when I fought my way back up the ladder, in debt to emergency rooms for many years after, going to work sick or not(and probably infecting others in the process? Those good old days? Those Obamacare rules on preexisting conditions are what allows My Beloved and I to afford her meds and necessary therapy, and the care I need for my own existing problems. “I’m sorry for your suffering, but it’s not my problem.” - conservatives Simple to say for the average citizen, but the politician, even the hardcore right wingers, at the least have a slightly more complicated calculus. ---
**Author:** ![mikecurtis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mikecurtis/32/3284_2.png) [@mikecurtis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mikecurtis)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2017, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-repeal-and-replace/785871/34 "2017-05-04T21:44:54Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > So this is a one-way rachet, in your view? The plan has passed, and now cannot be undone, because we know people that will be harmed? > > Horsepuckey, as Colonel Potter famously said. Decisions from the government harm people all the time. I know people that were harmed by the loss of their small business when minimum wages were raised. Did their cries stop the legislation? > > Public policy decisions cannot be paralyzed by the spectre of Uncle Billy’s harm. They involve the aggregate. your the one spewing horsehockey. i never advocated paralysis. but you, and those against ACA, are even acknowledging the harm. if you genuinely believe that the harm uncle billy and others will face is a fair trade off for changing the policy, have at it. you will find loud disagreement, not only here, but in the real world too. my point - again - is that that horse has left the barn, its no longer feasible to just go back to the way it was without acknowledging the real effect that it will cause. just beacase the Repubs have won the last few elections based on promises to replace ACA, doesnt negate the fact that the previous few administrations already did do something about it, and that is just as valid as the new push for something else! mc ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2017, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-repeal-and-replace/785871/35 "2017-05-04T21:44:58Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > No, the government is less involved in this version. > > Do you really need examples? > > You don’t have to pay the government a penalty any more if you’re not buying insurance. > > States may opt out of the “essential health benefits,” bar, which include contraception, also absurd – people certainly have a right to use contraception, but not a right to have it provided for them. > > There. Two off the top of my head. Paying less and altering regulations does not mean the government isn’t involved. Any more than changing the rules of the road to allow drivers to turn right on a red light means that the government has “gotten out of the traffic business”. The government is just as much involved as it was before, you just like these particular rules better. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2017, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-repeal-and-replace/785871/36 "2017-05-04T21:45:01Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > Except for the people who didn’t. You know the ones that died, suffered and went bankrupt? I think I know what you’re getting at, but this is a very poor argument for it. No, it’s a fundamental argument about what government’s role is. The idea seems to be that we inch along, with every generation accepting the idea that government must provide more stuff for them, plus all the entitlements of a previous generation. I don’t revel in people getting sick or declaring bankruptcy. But I don’t agree that the right role of government is to say to the other folks, the ones that are not sick or destitute, “Hey, we’re all a family here; chip in and cover Uncle Billy.” ---
**Author:** ![Wolf333](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolf333/32/3460_2.png) [@Wolf333](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wolf333)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2017, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-repeal-and-replace/785871/37 "2017-05-04T21:45:49Z")
> [@mikecurtis](#): > > you point would have more weight before something like ACA was passed. then you could say the possible harm to some individuals does not outweigh other points. however ACA did pass and is currently the law of the land; so now you and others are advocating change that would actually harm people. > > it’s all in the timing. > > if you feel that govt should not be in the health insurance biz, then you have to also address what should be done to ameliorate the harm that will be done by getting out. just hand waving and saying it should never have passed is no longer an option. > > mc I actually believe that harm is part of the prize. To quote one of my “christian” coworkers, “We need to make people more uncomfortable in their poverty.” ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2017, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-repeal-and-replace/785871/38 "2017-05-04T21:46:46Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Why is the rest of the country required to pay for you and your beloved? Not looking for a free ride. Just looking to spread the load around so that nobody gets hit so hard it puts them down permanently. ---
**Author:** ![mikecurtis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mikecurtis/32/3284_2.png) [@mikecurtis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mikecurtis)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2017, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-repeal-and-replace/785871/39 "2017-05-04T21:47:50Z")
> [@Wolf333](#): > > I actually believe that harm is part of the prize. > > To quote one of my “christian” coworkers, “We need to make people more uncomfortable in their poverty.” that must be how they’re gonna make america great again! mc ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2017, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-repeal-and-replace/785871/40 "2017-05-04T21:48:11Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Why is the rest of the country required to pay for you and your beloved? Because that’s how a society works. Especially one that claims to be based on Christian principles. I don’t remember Christ saying “I got mine, fuck you!” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-repeal-and-replace/785871.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-repeal-and-replace/785871.md?page=3)