# House passes "repeal and replace" **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 4, 2017, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-repeal-and-replace/785871 "2017-05-04T20:53:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2017, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-repeal-and-replace/785871/41 "2017-05-04T21:48:52Z")
If this bill was so good and right, why’d the House leadership have to lie about preexisting conditions? Just tell people straight out what they think, like Bricker does. Tell the sick and poor flat out that they’re on their own. At least then I’d have some shred of respect. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2017, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-repeal-and-replace/785871/42 "2017-05-04T21:49:20Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > Paying less and altering regulations does not mean the government isn’t involved. Any more than changing the rules of the road to allow drivers to turn right on a red light means that the government has “gotten out of the traffic business”. The government is just as much involved as it was before, you just like these particular rules better. Huh? You switched wording on me. I never said that this meant the government has “gotten out” of the traffic business. Or the health care business. “Gotten out,” was not a phrase I used. I said: > [@Bricker](#): > > My objection to Obamacare has always been one of basic philosophy: I don’t agree that providing everyone with health care is a proper role of government. > > Therefore, I think that it’s wise when we move away from that model, and unwise when we move towards it. So that’s what I said: “move away” and “move towards.” And then we can see how everything fits nicely: if the government instituted a rule allowing right turns on red, YES, I would say they are “moving away” from the model of total traffic control. ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2017, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-repeal-and-replace/785871/43 "2017-05-04T21:52:25Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > No, it’s a fundamental argument about what government’s role is. The idea seems to be that we inch along, with every generation accepting the idea that government must provide more stuff for them, plus all the entitlements of a previous generation. > > I don’t revel in people getting sick or declaring bankruptcy. But I don’t agree that the right role of government is to say to the other folks, the ones that are not sick or destitute, “Hey, we’re all a family here; chip in and cover Uncle Billy.” But that wasn’t your argument. You said “people did just fine without it”. But you were wrong. _Some_ people did. _Others_ did terribly. That particular argument had nothing to do with the government or its role at all. Just “I did fine, and I don’t really care about anyone else”. And that’s a terrible argument. Just saying. “Government’s role”: That argument might have legs. “I personally was oblivious to the pain and suffering going on around me for the past 50 years, so the status quo was hunky dory in my opinion”: Eh, not so much. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2017, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-repeal-and-replace/785871/44 "2017-05-04T21:52:31Z")
> [@](#): > > My objection to Obamacare has always been one of basic philosophy: I don’t agree that providing everyone with health care is a proper role of government… Political philosophy divorced from human concerns might as well be Leninism. People will suffer and die if we do not, and we can prevent that. Therefore, we should. Should we not provide food inspection? That’s health. Education isn’t directly health, but it affects health. That next? Government not going to provide an Army to protect my health from Guadalajara Muslims? So, you’re just gonna eat that _one_ potato chip, and then you’ll stop? ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2017, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-repeal-and-replace/785871/45 "2017-05-04T21:52:39Z")
Just to ask, Bricker, what do you think of the Emergency Medical Treatment and Labor Act? Also, do you expect any change to death rates and bankruptcy rates if this bill becomes the law of the land? If so, what changes do you expect, and to what extent? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2017, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-repeal-and-replace/785871/46 "2017-05-04T21:53:37Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > Because that’s how a society works. Especially one that claims to be based on Christian principles. > > I don’t remember Christ saying “I got mine, fuck you!” He did not, but then. . . this society is not based on Christian principles. We as a society have steadfastly fought against any such association; we sue to prohibit public prayer and school prayer; we aggressively demand removal of Christian religious monuments in public spaces; we try to forbid grants to playgrounds because they are run by Christian schools. So why in (ha!) Heaven’s name would I accept the argument now that this one policy should be derived from Christian teachings? Is it sui generis somehow? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2017, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-repeal-and-replace/785871/47 "2017-05-04T21:55:13Z")
Old folks deciding whether to spend all their money on medicines to stay alive an extra year or so, or just take the dirt nap and leave it for their grandkid’s college. Kinda like _The Waltons_, all warm and homey. ---
**Author:** ![mikecurtis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mikecurtis/32/3284_2.png) [@mikecurtis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mikecurtis)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2017, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-repeal-and-replace/785871/48 "2017-05-04T21:56:54Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally Posted by Bricker > Why is the rest of the country required to pay for you and your beloved? you know the answer to this the same as we all do. for the same reason everyone is required to pay for the roads and the schools and the defense dept. because we believe that these are things that make this country better with them than without them. and we should and did add the health and well being of our fellow citizens to that list. and that was a good thing, IMHO. mc ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2017, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-repeal-and-replace/785871/49 "2017-05-04T21:59:47Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Political philosophy divorced from human concerns might as well be Leninism. People will suffer and die if we do not, and we can prevent that. Therefore, we should. Too facile an analysis. People will suffer and die in car wrecks. But we permit the deadly contraptions to keep running. Are we monsters? Or do we engage in cold-blooded cost benefit calculations? What do you say to poor little Cindy Lou (who was no more than two) when her mommy was killed in a car crash that we could have stopped by requiring only professional drivers drive on our streets with public transportation vehicles and end the deadly scourge of private automobiles? The answer is that Cindy Lou’s plight is tragic but not the proper way to develop public policy, and that goes double for Czarcasm and his inamorata/o. I sympathize with the individual; I do not agree that the anecdote should drive the policy result. ---
**Author:** ![Ann\_Hedonia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ann_hedonia/32/319_2.png) [@Ann\_Hedonia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ann_Hedonia)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2017, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-repeal-and-replace/785871/50 "2017-05-04T21:59:47Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > My objection to Obamacare has always been one of basic philosophy: I don’t agree that providing everyone with health care is a proper role of government. > > Therefore, I think that it’s wise when we move away from that model, and unwise when we move towards it. OK. I disagree with you. I suspect most Republican legislators agree with you. I’ve watched a lot of cable news in the past few days and I’ve seen a lot of people on both side interviewed. And I have not seen anyone say “We don’t care if our constituents have insurance or not. If they can’t afford to buy insurance at the terms the market dictates then that’s their problem and the government shouldn’t be involved in the process.” Instead they either lie about the effects of the bill or use weasel language like “access to coverage” instead of saying " if you have a pre-existing condition no one’s going to actively block you from buying insurance at 10K a month, if you can come up with the money you can be insured and if you can’t it’s not our problem". And yes, Trump won the election. He was also the candidate that promised “A system that would cover MORE people at a fraction of the cost”. Of course, that promise always reminded me of the guy runnng for elementary school president that promised to put Pepsi in the water fountains, but still, that is what he promised and he also promised to achieve this over the objections of his own party. Now, if I suspected that most Americans wanted to go back to the way things were pre-ACA I’d still be mad, but I’d be angry in a whole different way. But the way this legislation passed was just dishonest. If you think your constituents want repeal only, just repeal it. But don’t say “repeal and replace” unless you really mean it. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2017, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-repeal-and-replace/785871/51 "2017-05-04T22:01:38Z")
> [@mikecurtis](#): > > you know the answer to this the same as we all do. for the same reason everyone is required to pay for the roads and the schools and the defense dept. because we believe that these are things that make this country better with them than without them. and we should and did add the health and well being of our fellow citizens to that list. and that was a good thing, IMHO. > > mc I think it wasn’t a good thing. IMHO. b ---
**Author:** ![mikecurtis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mikecurtis/32/3284_2.png) [@mikecurtis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mikecurtis)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2017, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-repeal-and-replace/785871/52 "2017-05-04T22:02:19Z")
> [@Ann\_Hedonia](#): > > If you think your constituents want repeal only, just repeal it. But don’t say “repeal and replace” unless you really mean it. yeah! what she said! mc ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2017, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-repeal-and-replace/785871/53 "2017-05-04T22:03:03Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > That was my thought. It’s a complete non-starter in the Senate, so what difference does it make? Many thought it was a non-starter in the House too yet it squeaked through. It may do precisely the same in the Senate once the wheeling and dealing is over. Trump and the Republicans need this to pass, look for a lot of arm-twisting ahead. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2017, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-repeal-and-replace/785871/54 "2017-05-04T22:03:04Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > But that wasn’t your argument. You said “people did just fine without it”. But you were wrong. _Some_ people did. _Others_ did terribly. That particular argument had nothing to do with the government or its role at all. Just “I did fine, and I don’t really care about anyone else”. And that’s a terrible argument. Just saying. People in the aggregate. Not “each and every person in the land.” ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2017, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-repeal-and-replace/785871/55 "2017-05-04T22:06:03Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > If this bill was so good and right, why’d the House leadership have to lie about preexisting conditions? Just tell people straight out what they think, like Bricker does. Tell the sick and poor flat out that they’re on their own. At least then I’d have some shred of respect. If the original bill was so good and right, why did Obama have to lie about it, telling people if they liked their existing care they could keep it? ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2017, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-repeal-and-replace/785871/56 "2017-05-04T22:07:42Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > **He did not, but then. . . this society is not based on Christian principles.** We as a society have steadfastly fought against any such association; we sue to prohibit public prayer and school prayer; we aggressively demand removal of Christian religious monuments in public spaces; we try to forbid grants to playgrounds because they are run by Christian schools. > > So why in (ha!) Heaven’s name would I accept the argument now that this one policy should be derived from Christian teachings? Is it sui generis somehow? No shit. You’re talking about forcing a specific religion on others. Mercy and compassion are examples of Christian (and Jewish and Muslim, etc) principles. [Matthew 25:40](http://biblehub.com/matthew/25-40.htm)(American Standard) > [@](#): > > And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’ ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2017, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-repeal-and-replace/785871/57 "2017-05-04T22:09:34Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > If the original bill was so good and right, why did Obama have to lie about it, telling people if they liked their existing care they could keep it? So why can’t your side take the high ground? “But he started it” is the argument of a four year old. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2017, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-repeal-and-replace/785871/58 "2017-05-04T22:10:13Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > **Bricker** , do you have a horse in this race? If Obamacare is repealed, do you stand to lose anything in the way of necessary healthcare? Not directly, because I have employer-provided MEC . . . although I do have a pre-existing medical condition that might cause issues if I lose coverage and have to regain it without the Obamacare guarantee. So my desired outcome here may well make my own situation untenable one day. So what? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2017, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-repeal-and-replace/785871/59 "2017-05-04T22:13:33Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > So why can’t your side take the high ground? > “But he started it” is the argument of a four year old. That’s not my argument. I was answering the question by suggesting the motives were the same. That is, the motive for Obama’s lie was identical to the motives animating the current Republican lie. You’re asking a new question: even if Obama lied, shouldn’t Republicans still choose not to lie? Yes, they should, but considering the presumptive leader of the party is a liar on a scale that no politician in the modern age ever dreamed of, I don’t see it happening. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2017, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-repeal-and-replace/785871/60 "2017-05-04T22:16:08Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > No shit. > You’re talking about forcing a specific religion on others. > > Mercy and compassion are examples of Christian (and Jewish and Muslim, etc) principles. > [Matthew 25:40](http://biblehub.com/matthew/25-40.htm)(American Standard) So what? Why should religious principles from a book based on the imaginary tales from a nomadic group of wanderers be remotely relevant in forming policy? (This is the view of the Bible that government should adopt, under current caselaw). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-repeal-and-replace/785871.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-repeal-and-replace/785871.md?page=4)