# House passes "repeal and replace" **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 4, 2017, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-repeal-and-replace/785871 "2017-05-04T20:53:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 34
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2017, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-repeal-and-replace/785871/661 "2017-05-09T02:37:44Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > **Banquet Bear** , that was beautiful. Damn straight. Two incredibly eloquent posts tonight. Bravo. ---
**Author:** ![CaptMurdock](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/captmurdock/32/11736_2.png) [@CaptMurdock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CaptMurdock)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2017, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-repeal-and-replace/785871/662 "2017-05-09T03:01:32Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > **Banquet Bear** , that was beautiful. Yes. _adding in sound effect of applause_ ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2017, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-repeal-and-replace/785871/663 "2017-05-09T04:35:39Z")
I’m pondering that whole notion of separate states as semi-sovereign entities, where different ideas about social structure are experimented with. Can’t help but picture Mississippi, _circa_ 1964, when just such an experiment was boiling. Should Federal force be applied to cancel such experiments, to crush the time-honored traditions of a free people? Yes. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2017, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-repeal-and-replace/785871/664 "2017-05-09T05:35:52Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > One thing the SDMB is great for: after one of these threads I write another check. This time it’s to the American Action Network, a PAC that’s helping with repeal lobbying. Not even tax deductible, and I find their tactics questionable. But damn, **Banquet Bear** , I read your post and I thought. . . rather fund a questionable PAC than stand idle and watch the **Banquet Bear** mentality wipe out the federal/state divide. Emotional blackmail-lovely. “Because you disagree with me, I’m going to give money to a group I think you oppose. They get my money, _and it’s all your fault!_” ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2017, 5:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-repeal-and-replace/785871/665 "2017-05-09T05:59:38Z")
Well, he’s already blaming liberals for paving the way for a future hypothetical tyrant, so why not? ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2017, 6:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-repeal-and-replace/785871/666 "2017-05-09T06:41:21Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > One thing the SDMB is great for: after one of these threads I write another check. This time it’s to the American Action Network, a PAC that’s helping with repeal lobbying. Not even tax deductible, and I find their tactics questionable. But damn, **Banquet Bear** , I read your post and I thought. . . rather fund a questionable PAC than stand idle and watch the **Banquet Bear** mentality wipe out the federal/state divide. The reason the federal/state divide is being eliminated is not “the **Banquet Bear** mentality”. It’s the fact that people are more mobile and more free to travel and communicate than ever before. Distinctions between states are breaking down because they make very little sense in this context. ---
**Author:** ![Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/half_man_half_wit/32/21766_2.png) [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Half_Man_Half_Wit)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2017, 7:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-repeal-and-replace/785871/667 "2017-05-09T07:15:24Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Emotional blackmail-lovely. > “Because you disagree with me, I’m going to give money to a group I think you oppose. They get my money, _and it’s all your fault!_” Indeed. Usually, **Bricker** ’s ‘Baby’s First Rhetoric’-level tactics are at least somewhat amusing to witness, but this is really of one piece with ‘would be a shame if something _happened_ to it’, blaming the opponent for (what they are bound to perceive as) **Bricker** ’s negative actions. See also: ‘now look what you made me do!’, ‘stop hitting yourself’, and so on. But at the very least, it should disabuse anybody of the notion that **Bricker** is in any way interested in fair debate. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2017, 11:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-repeal-and-replace/785871/668 "2017-05-09T11:42:30Z")
> [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](#): > > Indeed. Usually, **Bricker** ’s ‘Baby’s First Rhetoric’-level tactics are at least somewhat amusing to witness, but this is really of one piece with ‘would be a shame if something _happened_ to it’, blaming the opponent for (what they are bound to perceive as) **Bricker** ’s negative actions. See also: ‘now look what you made me do!’, ‘stop hitting yourself’, and so on. > > But at the very least, it should disabuse anybody of the notion that **Bricker** is in any way interested in fair debate. In what possible way does this constitute unfair debate, but the multiple instances in this thread in which are thrown accusations of immorality and sociopathy are hunky-dory? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2017, 11:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-repeal-and-replace/785871/669 "2017-05-09T11:44:21Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Emotional blackmail-lovely. > “Because you disagree with me, I’m going to give money to a group I think you oppose. They get my money, _and it’s all your fault!_” No. “Because this disagreement highlights the importance of the outcome I seek, I’m going to give money to a group that furthers the outcome I seek.” ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2017, 11:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-repeal-and-replace/785871/670 "2017-05-09T11:45:59Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Are you that scared of my voice? Well imagine the voices you will hear if the ACA is repealed. You better start installing those storm shutters. Because things are going to get awfully loud. I’m not scared of your voice. I’m scared, terrified, that the outcome you desire – the elimination of American states as sovereign political entities – will come to pass. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2017, 12:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-repeal-and-replace/785871/671 "2017-05-09T12:01:28Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I’m not scared of your voice. I’m scared, terrified, that the outcome you desire – the elimination of American states as sovereign political entities – will come to pass. So you see the ACA as a threat to this sovereignty as I understand it, but eliminating it will cost X number of people their lives. What value of X would be too high, in your estimation, to justify upholding this principle of state sovereignty? ---
**Author:** ![Tee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@Tee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tee)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2017, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-repeal-and-replace/785871/672 "2017-05-09T12:36:22Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > I don’t think I’ve read anything more horrific on this messageboard in my life. > > I read it last night before I went to bed: I hoped that when I woke up and read it with fresh eyes it would have improved. But it hasn’t. > > Its horrific for a number of reasons. I think one of the reasons it horrifies me is the thought that you are not the only person who thinks this. That this is mainstream-conservative thinking. It’s a kind of a hobby for me to monitor and take issue with mainstream-conservative thinking and I encounter lots of horrific things. The mere desire to keep federal and state powers in their assigned driving lanes barely registers. From NZ you possibly can’t see the 50 different state administrations at work, but that’s what we have, that’s what ultimately delivers the benefits of federal legislation to the people. The federal government sends large checks here and there and runs its own Veterans Administration to benefit people who served in the armed forces. Otherwise, the states handle their own health care business. How they are handling it, how conservatives see health care spending, how they are likely to oppose all social spending for any reason that’s handy, that’s the stuff I wonder about along with many others. But you will get nowhere here in the 50 states trying to persuade people that the separate states thing has gone out of style. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2017, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-repeal-and-replace/785871/673 "2017-05-09T12:44:44Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I’m not scared of your voice. I’m scared, terrified, that the outcome you desire – the elimination of American states as sovereign political entities – will come to pass. …for all your complaints in this thread that you have been mis-represented, it is absolutely astonishing that you think that “the elimination of American states as sovereign political entities” is my goal. I suggest you read my posts again. That isn’t what I said at all. “Evolution” does not have to equal “elimination.” You can keep States as sovereign political entities and provide affordable healthcare for all of your countrymen. You don’t have to pick one or the other. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2017, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-repeal-and-replace/785871/674 "2017-05-09T12:45:09Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > I’m pondering that whole notion of separate states as semi-sovereign entities, where different ideas about social structure are experimented with. Can’t help but picture Mississippi, _circa_ 1964, when just such an experiment was boiling. Should Federal force be applied to cancel such experiments, to crush the time-honored traditions of a free people? > > Yes. Th idea of federalism is not to give the states carte blanche. There is the 14th amendment, and preventing citizens from voting, without due process, is _no bueno_, as the Founding _Padres_ were fond of saying. Beyond that, the Jim Crow South was a literal Apartheid regime. Federalism does not prevent the feds from stepping in to correct that situation. Remember, the idea is that States can do anything that is not forbidden. That does not mean the States can do anything. > [@BPC](#): > > The reason the federal/state divide is being eliminated… That is not happening. It has certainly been reduced, but it’s not being eliminated. The fact that you would even think that is rather telling. ---
**Author:** ![Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/half_man_half_wit/32/21766_2.png) [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Half_Man_Half_Wit)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2017, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-repeal-and-replace/785871/675 "2017-05-09T12:54:56Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > In what possible way does this constitute unfair debate, but the multiple instances in this thread in which are thrown accusations of immorality and sociopathy are hunky-dory? In that what you’re doing has a concrete real-world effect facilitating outcomes that your opponent would view negatively, while the rest are just words on a screen that I’m sure an adult like you can handle. > [@Bricker](#): > > No. “Because this disagreement highlights the importance of the outcome I seek, I’m going to give money to a group that furthers the outcome I seek.” If that were all there’s to it, you could’ve just given the money without ever mentioning it. But you choose instead to inform everybody of it. But of course, what you’re doing with these replies is just what you’ve been doing throughout this thread: open up irrelevant sideshows to tie up the debate into ever more fragmented and disconnected issues, say by the usage of vague/ill-defined terms like ‘wise’ or ‘lowest common denominator’, which you then ‘define’ using yet more vague verbiage, such that ultimately the actual issue at hand becomes completely obfuscated, hidden under the layers of chaff you throw up. And once you’ve gotten to issues irrelevant enough, you even might concede some of them, so that everybody sees what a reasonable debater you are. I’m fully aware that this reply only aids you in that fragmentation; but just to be clear, I’m not going to provide any further material. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2017, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-repeal-and-replace/785871/676 "2017-05-09T13:12:03Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Even the way you spend money is slower and more expensive than the rest of the world. Oh, this is the burniest of burns… ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2017, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-repeal-and-replace/785871/677 "2017-05-09T13:13:46Z")
> [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](#): > > In that what you’re doing has a concrete real-world effect facilitating outcomes that your opponent would view negatively, while the rest are just words on a screen that I’m sure an adult like you can handle. Again, my question was related to “unfair debate.” The words on a screen were part of the debate. Were they fair? > [@](#): > > If that were all there’s to it, you could’ve just given the money without ever mentioning it. But you choose instead to inform everybody of it. Mentioning it also highlights the importance of the outcome I seek, and we tend to share the things that are important to us. Look how many posts I have made about Voter ID and how many posts I have made about Harry Styles’ debut album. See which topic occupies more of my interest? > [@](#): > > But of course, what you’re doing with these replies is just what you’ve been doing throughout this thread: open up irrelevant sideshows to tie up the debate into ever more fragmented and disconnected issues, say by the usage of vague/ill-defined terms like ‘wise’ or ‘lowest common denominator’, which you then ‘define’ using yet more vague verbiage, such that ultimately the actual issue at hand becomes completely obfuscated, hidden under the layers of chaff you throw up. And once you’ve gotten to issues irrelevant enough, you even might concede some of them, so that everybody sees what a reasonable debater you are. I am a reasonable debater. See? > [@](#): > > I’m fully aware that this reply only aids you in that fragmentation; but just to be clear, I’m not going to provide any further material. I will - somehow - struggle on bereft of your valuable insight. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2017, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-repeal-and-replace/785871/678 "2017-05-09T13:17:20Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > So you can write a check to whomever you damn well like. I have a “check” account by the way: but I don’t have any checks. They are obsolete. I haven’t seen one in years. The name lives on in legacy only. Nearly everything here is done via bank-to-bank transfer. Because bank-to-bank transfer is cheaper, easier, with less waste, is near instantaneous and is vastly more efficient. Even the way you spend money is slower and more expensive than the rest of the world. Lots of people do electronic transfers – I do myself for most bills. But I have checks! Ran out a while ago when I needed one, in fact. But – so far as you’re aware, when I write a paper check, and mail it to them – they get the money, right? ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2017, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-repeal-and-replace/785871/679 "2017-05-09T13:23:43Z")
> [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](#): > > But at the very least, it should disabuse anybody of the notion that **Bricker** is in any way interested in fair debate. If you wish to impugn a poster’s motives, the Pit would be the place to do it. Don’t do this here. [/moderating] ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2017, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-repeal-and-replace/785871/680 "2017-05-09T13:25:12Z")
> [@Tee](#): > > It’s a kind of a hobby for me to monitor and take issue with mainstream-conservative thinking and I encounter lots of horrific things. The mere desire to keep federal and state powers in their assigned driving lanes barely registers. …you misunderstand what I found horrific. “This is the perfect times to realize we have fifty pteri dishes. That’s the strength of the model. We can experiment and see what works.” 50 individual experiments on healthcare? To see what works? In 2017? This isn’t about the mere separation of federal and state powers. This is about playing games with peoples lives in the worst way possible. > [@](#): > > But you will get nowhere here in the 50 states trying to persuade people that the separate states thing has gone out of style. I was reading the [story](https://twitter.com/dubsteppenwolf/status/859938265280983040)about a guy whose older brother stole fish antibiotics to help him when he got sick. A friend of his got stabbed (working as a bouncer) and they closed the wound with duct tape. This was normal for him: until the ACA came along, and he had access to proper healthcare for the first time in his life. “A lot of us got healthcare for the first time. We stopped dying so fast from such incredibly stupid shit.” If you take that healthcare away from him, and if you take it away from him because of the incredibly weak arguments presented in this thread, then you don’t have to worry about me trying to persuade people that the “separate states thing is going out of style.” I’ll be the least of your worries. People had learned how to live without healthcare. But for them to finally get healthcare after a lifetime of hardship, then have it taken away? You guys have no idea the monster you are about to unleash. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-repeal-and-replace/785871.md?page=33) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-repeal-and-replace/785871.md?page=35)