# House passes "repeal and replace" **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 4, 2017, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-repeal-and-replace/785871 "2017-05-04T20:53:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 35
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2017, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-repeal-and-replace/785871/681 "2017-05-09T13:28:17Z")
BTW, **Bricker** , let’s not get too carried with the federalism idea here. While I agree with you that the cavalier manner in which many posters here treat it is concerning, I would not consider this piece of legislative baloney to be a shining example of what federalism is all about. It may take us a wee bit closer to the states being in control of things, but not much. And the other flaws in it (like the loss of coverage by so many people) far outweighs any incremental federalism which might be gained. This piece of legislation was hastily thrown together for the main purpose of checking a campaign promise off the the list. It’s terrible legislation, when taken as a whole. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2017, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-repeal-and-replace/785871/682 "2017-05-09T13:29:22Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > . People had learned how to live without healthcare. But for them to finally get healthcare after a lifetime of hardship, then have it taken away? You guys have no idea the monster you are about to unleash. This would be the under-11-million people that are currently covered? At a guess, what percentage of that 11 million were going to vote GOP before this electorally disastrous decision of the GOPs? My sense is: pretty damn few. So my further guess is that this “monster unleash” prediction is not grounded in reality. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2017, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-repeal-and-replace/785871/683 "2017-05-09T13:39:55Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > At a guess, what percentage of that 11 million were going to vote GOP before this electorally disastrous decision of the GOPs? Right! When will we learn that people’s opinions and well-being only matter if they are inclined to vote Republican? > [@](#): > > My sense is: pretty damn few. So my further guess is that this “monster unleash” prediction is not grounded in reality. Snarky comment aside, the thinking is that Democratic-leaning voters tend not to show up, especially in off-year elections. If they become motivated to show up – again, that is IF – then it could greatly impact the 2018 elections. I fail to see what’s to disagree with about that reasoning. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2017, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-repeal-and-replace/785871/684 "2017-05-09T14:00:32Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Right! When will we learn that people’s opinions and well-being only matter if they are inclined to vote Republican? As a reminder, I was not commenting on whether their opinions matter in any but the narrow sense of “People had learned how to live without healthcare. But for them to finally get healthcare after a lifetime of hardship, then have it taken away? You guys have no idea the monster you are about to unleash.” As an analogy, consider the following hypothetical exchange: BILL: I heard Liechtenstein is demanding that North Korea disarm and stop all their missile tests. TED: Ha! As if! Liechtenstein is, like, the sixth smallest country in the world. They’ve got like no military forces and less than 40,000 people. I’m sure Kim Jong-Un is totally quaking in his stylish yet affordable boots! RAVENMAN: Right! When will we learn that people’s opinions only matter if they are in a country with a large military? TED: Are you being sarcastic? It’s hard to tell. Ted’s comment was not a general refutation of the value of opinions from the fine people of Liechtenstein. It was an observation that North Korea’s leadership would be unlikely to be swayed. With that lesson firmly in hand, we may return to our actual conversation. **Banquet Bear** prophesied, “People had learned how to live without healthcare. But for them to finally get healthcare after a lifetime of hardship, then have it taken away? You guys have no idea the monster you are about to unleash.” I pointed out that the 11 million people who currently have the coverage in question are not likely to be a major GOP voting bloc, and thus his prediction of an unleashed monster was not likely to come to pass. My comment, like our fictional Ted’s above, was not a general refutation of the value of opinions from the fine people under ACA coverage. It was an observation that the GOP leadership would be unlikely to be swayed. > [@](#): > > Snarky comment aside, the thinking is that Democratic-leaning voters tend not to show up, especially in off-year elections. If they become motivated to show up – again, that is IF – then it could greatly impact the 2018 elections. I fail to see what’s to disagree with about that reasoning. You’re thinking that they’re more reliably not voters at all, and if this stirs them out of their electoral apathy, it could spell trouble for the GOP? I regard that danger as slight. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2017, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-repeal-and-replace/785871/685 "2017-05-09T14:09:54Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > …I pointed out that the 11 million people who currently have the coverage in question are not likely to be a major GOP voting bloc… The reaction House members are getting at Town Hall meetings across the country does not attest to the veracity of that statement. Nor does the 17% approval rating for the legislation in question, vs the \>50% approval rating for Obamacare. The Republicans, yet again, are treating us to a show of how they just don’t know how to govern. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2017, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-repeal-and-replace/785871/686 "2017-05-09T14:17:04Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > You’re thinking that they’re more reliably not voters at all, and if this stirs them out of their electoral apathy, it could spell trouble for the GOP? > > I regard that danger as slight. I heard of John Boehner looking out a huge crowd in opposition to the ACA and remarking “I’m going to be Speaker”. Extremely motivated people vote in high numbers. Republicans for years have feasted on the fact that their voters turn out in higher numbers in off years than Democrats do. I think that is going to change, and not in your favor. This Republican bill threatens people’s lives. Support for it is not going to be forgotten. ---
**Author:** ![CatandMouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c89c15/32.png) [@CatandMouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CatandMouse)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2017, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-repeal-and-replace/785871/687 "2017-05-09T14:26:03Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …you haven’t explained what “the lowest common denominator” is. What is it? Why is it so bad? > > We all agree that America is a powerhouse now. Will it continue to be a powerhouse if it yanks affordable healthcare from people who just got it? If it passes responsibility for the rights of the LGBT community exclusively to the states? 30 years ago arguably yes. But now? These people have a voice. And they will use it. And they can be heard more easily now than any time in human history. > > And if you choose not to listen, then sooner or later it will all come crashing down. > > You can block out dissenting views as much as you like. That won’t make them shut up. > > I don’t live in the United States. So you can write a check to whomever you damn well like. I have a “check” account by the way: but I don’t have any checks. They are obsolete. I haven’t seen one in years. The name lives on in legacy only. Nearly everything here is done via bank-to-bank transfer. Because bank-to-bank transfer is cheaper, easier, with less waste, is near instantaneous and is vastly more efficient. Even the way you spend money is slower and more expensive than the rest of the world. > > Our founding document is the Treaty of Waitangi. My society is founded on a partnership between tangata whenua and the crown. We put a strong emphasis on whanau: on looking after each other. It is the cornerstone of who we are as a people. > > About five years ago my dad went outside to get the newspaper. At about five in the morning. It was pouring down with rain: and my dad fell over. And he couldn’t stand up again. He had to roll across the dirty muddy grass to get to the drive way. Then he had to roll down the drive way to get to get to the stairs. Then he had to painstakingly crawl up four stairs, and then started to bang on the floor to wake me up. I found him on the ground, bruised, soaking wet, not able to talk. > > My dad had had a stroke. He was taken to the critical care unit and spent a couple of days there before moving to a general ward. He was there for about a month before they sent him to Kenepuru Hospital for a couple of weeks of rehabilitation. When he finally came home, the nurse visited every few weeks to see that he was doing okay. The hospital supplied a walking frame so he could keep moving around the house. > > And dad is still here. No “death panels” down under. 82 and still going strong. Apart from the medication (at $2.00 per item per prescription), and incidental costs like driving to see him and parking, we spent zero dollars out of pocket. And in pure government dollars we spent half the amount the United States does on healthcare. > > You can go to any western country in the world and hear similar stories. Affordable healthcare. It isn’t even up for debate. The exception is the United States. Because in the United States achieving better health outcomes and happier people at affordable costs is not the priority. Preserving the distinctions between the feds and the states is so much more important. :rolleyes: > > You are a smart guy Bricker. You should really ask yourself why the arguments you put forward in this thread in defense of “repeal and replace” are so incredibly lame. You might want to ask yourself why you spent your last post telling us all that you were donating money to a questionable PAC based on the opinion of somebody who lives on the other side of the world. > > Because that really is unwise. Are you that scared of my voice? Well imagine the voices you will hear if the ACA is repealed. You better start installing those storm shutters. Because things are going to get awfully loud. I’m going to print that, frame it, and hang it on my wall. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2017, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-repeal-and-replace/785871/688 "2017-05-09T14:27:46Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > The reaction House members are getting at Town Hall meetings across the country does not attest to the veracity of that statement. Nor does the 17% approval rating for the legislation in question, vs the \>50% approval rating for Obamacare. Is there something about Town Hall meetings that limits their attendance to GOP voters? > [@](#): > > The Republicans, yet again, are treating us to a show of how they just don’t know how to govern. Yes, yes, they are flawed. But I don’t have any problem resolving the flaws heaped on the scale for each side in favor of the GOP. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2017, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-repeal-and-replace/785871/689 "2017-05-09T14:29:05Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > With that lesson firmly in hand, we may return to our actual conversation. Christ, and we’re constantly told that it is liberals who have no sense of humor. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2017, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-repeal-and-replace/785871/690 "2017-05-09T14:31:28Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Lots of people do electronic transfers – I do myself for most bills. But I have checks! Ran out a while ago when I needed one, in fact. > > But – so far as you’re aware, when I write a paper check, and mail it to them – they get the money, right? …omigosh? REALLY? When you send them a paper check, THEY GET THE MONEY? Get out of here! I had no idea! All those checks I used to write, way back when checks were the norm, I never knew that the people I sent the checks too actually got the money! I wondered what was happening to all that cash in my bank account! I no longer have to worry about running out of checks. I don’t have to worry about having envelopes or stamps. I don’t have to go out in the rain to pop the check in a mailbox. I don’t have to worry about the check getting lost in the mail. As a business owner I don’t have to schedule time to go down to the bank to deposit my checks. I don’t have to worry about waiting for them to clear. I don’t have to worry that those checks are going to bounce. This morning I checked my bank account and a client had paid their bill 10 days early. One minute later I had paid all the contractors who had worked on that job, 11 days early. A customer actually sent me a check a couple of years ago. It was a pain in the arse. I had to go to the bank to deposit it. The bank demanded another form of ID from me. I had to wait for three days for it to clear. Pain. In. The. Arse. Checks cost me time and money and I’m glad that I (almost never) don’t have to deal with them any more. > [@](#): > > This would be the under-11-million people that are currently covered? > > At a guess, what percentage of that 11 million were going to vote GOP before this electorally disastrous decision of the GOPs? > > My sense is: pretty damn few. So my further guess is that this “monster unleash” prediction is not grounded in reality. I’m not just talking about voting Bricker: and I have no reason why you would think that was what I meant. When “people stopped dying so fast from such incredibly stupid shit”, and then they start dying again from incredibly stupid shit, they aren’t going to put up with dying from incredibly stupid shit any more. 11 million people is still 11 million fucking people. That might be insignificant number to you. But these people are used to being treated as insignificant. They won’t have anything to loose now. I don’t actually know what is going to happen. But you can’t just dismiss them. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2017, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-repeal-and-replace/785871/691 "2017-05-09T14:32:54Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > I heard of John Boehner looking out a huge crowd in opposition to the ACA and remarking “I’m going to be Speaker”. Extremely motivated people vote in high numbers. Republicans for years have feasted on the fact that their voters turn out in higher numbers in off years than Democrats do. I think that is going to change, and not in your favor. This Republican bill threatens people’s lives. Support for it is not going to be forgotten. Do you recall how many similarly confident predictions you have made over the years? Kerry was going to beat Bush, according to you. The Democrats were going to control the House and the Senate; Clinton was going to top 300 electoral votes, all delivered in the same confident manner. I bet that after the 2018 midterms, Republicans still control the House, the Senate, and the White House. And by “bet,” I mean I am willing to incur a real-world loss if I am wrong against a equal real-world gain if I am right. Your confident prediction isn’t that confident, by chance, is it? ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2017, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-repeal-and-replace/785871/692 "2017-05-09T14:35:47Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Do you recall how many similarly confident predictions you have made over the years? Kerry was going to beat Bush, according to you. The Democrats were going to control the House and the Senate; Clinton was going to top 300 electoral votes, all delivered in the same confident manner. > > I bet that after the 2018 midterms, Republicans still control the House, the Senate, and the White House. And by “bet,” I mean I am willing to incur a real-world loss if I am wrong against a equal real-world gain if I am right. Your confident prediction isn’t that confident, by chance, is it? I do not gamble but if you were in reasonable distance, I would happily bet you a bottle of the non-alcoholic beverage of your choice that Democrats will win the House in 2018. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2017, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-repeal-and-replace/785871/693 "2017-05-09T14:39:17Z")
Is there any evidence that the ACA increased life expectancy in the US\*? Remember, not having insurance before the ACA didn’t mean you were unable to get medical care and that people were “dying in the streets” in the US. In most cases, you went to the emergency room, and you got treated regardless. It’s just that the rest of us paid for it in a more expensive way (supposedly). \*Maybe too short a time to tell, but without data, let’s not go throwing death around as if it were an inevitable consequence of a change in Obamacare. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2017, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-repeal-and-replace/785871/694 "2017-05-09T14:39:46Z")
> [@CatandMouse](#): > > I’m going to print that, frame it, and hang it on my wall. 🙂 > [@MrDibble](#): > > Oh, this is the burniest of burns… > [@CaptMurdock](#): > > Yes. > > _adding in sound effect of applause_ > [@BobLibDem](#): > > Damn straight. Two incredibly eloquent posts tonight. Bravo. > [@monstro](#): > > **Banquet Bear** , that was beautiful. …thank you all. :o Its 0230 in the morning down under, and I’m bowing out of this thread, and I have a busy week for the rest of the week and probably won’t be back. I have no stake in this battle: but I feel for those that do. I have great, affordable healthcare. There is no reason why the greatest, most powerful nation in the history of the world can’t have great, affordable healthcare as well. Keep fighting the fight. Kia Kaha. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2017, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-repeal-and-replace/785871/695 "2017-05-09T14:49:12Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > I have no stake in this battle: but I feel for those that do. I have great, affordable healthcare. There is no reason why the greatest, most powerful nation in the history of the world can’t have great, affordable healthcare as well. Keep fighting the fight. Kia Kaha. While I think the ACA is better than the AHCA, the ACA isn’t exactly “great, affordable health care”, so let’s not go overboard here. Would you trade your existing NZ system for an ACA system? I doubt it. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2017, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-repeal-and-replace/785871/696 "2017-05-09T14:52:13Z")
> [@CatandMouse](#): > > I’m going to print that, frame it, and hang it on my wall. 🙂 Hyperbole? ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2017, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-repeal-and-replace/785871/697 "2017-05-09T15:05:55Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Is there any evidence that the ACA increased life expectancy in the US\*? **Remember, not having insurance before the ACA didn’t mean you were unable to get medical care and that people were “dying in the streets” in the US.** In most cases, you went to the emergency room, and you got treated regardless. It’s just that the rest of us paid for it in a more expensive way (supposedly). > > \*Maybe too short a time to tell, but without data, let’s not go throwing death around as if it were an inevitable consequence of a change in Obamacare. But would they get any aftercare(?) once the immediate emergency is dealt with? I was in the hospital almost 2 months(2 1/2 weeks induced coma), rehab facility 12 days, went home with a walker, wheelchair and bath bench. A month of home visits to deal with the still healing skin graft. Almost two years of monthly doctor visits plus five surgeries. How much of that would an uninsured person have gotten? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2017, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-repeal-and-replace/785871/698 "2017-05-09T15:29:29Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > But would they get any aftercare(?) once the immediate emergency is dealt with? > > I was in the hospital almost 2 months(2 1/2 weeks induced coma), rehab facility 12 days, went home with a walker, wheelchair and bath bench. A month of home visits to deal with the still healing skin graft. Almost two years of monthly doctor visits plus five surgeries. > How much of that would an uninsured person have gotten? I honestly don’t know. I’m just trying to understand this whole idea that people will be dying\* if the ACA is repealed. I’m not sure folks in other countries understand that no insurance isn’t the same as no healthcare, and that if we repeal the ACA, people will be literally dying in the streets. \*We all die at some point, of course, but dying “prematurely”, as it were. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2017, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-repeal-and-replace/785871/699 "2017-05-09T15:31:41Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > That is not happening. It has certainly been reduced, but it’s not being eliminated. The fact that you would even think that is rather telling. Hey, if Bricker gets to characterize this small potatoes bullshit as some death by a thousand cuts, I get to at least _dream_, don’t I? ---
**Author:** ![CatandMouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c89c15/32.png) [@CatandMouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CatandMouse)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2017, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-repeal-and-replace/785871/700 "2017-05-09T15:36:12Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Hyperbole? Jealous? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-repeal-and-replace/785871.md?page=34) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-repeal-and-replace/785871.md?page=36)