# House passes "repeal and replace" **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 4, 2017, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-repeal-and-replace/785871 "2017-05-04T20:53:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 51
**Author:** ![tim314](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim314/32/3468_2.png) [@tim314](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tim314)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2017, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-repeal-and-replace/785871/1001 "2017-06-23T22:26:33Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > The ACA has only been in effect for what, seven years? It wasn’t carved in stone, handed down by God to Moses on a mountaintop. Even if the ACA was repealed entirely, which it won’t be, returning to the status quo ante is not the same as killing people. This overlooks the fact that some people were _completely screwed_ under the previous status quo. The ACA helped people who _desperately needed it_, and the repeal effort would basically say to those people “no, on second thought, f\*\*\* you and here’s a tax break for the wealthy.” That’s even supposing the bill exactly restores the previous status quo, which I don’t think is accurate. Regarding “killing people” – no, obviously it isn’t the exact moral equivalent of pointing a gun at someone’s head and pulling the trigger. But I think somewhat hyperbolic language is justified here if it drives home the point that there are real lives hanging in the balance. This isn’t some sort of esoteric question about the proper role of government. It’s a question of life and death. And I think for Congress to lose site of that fact is a terrible mistake. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2017, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-repeal-and-replace/785871/1002 "2017-06-24T02:01:02Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > . . . When a law purports to treat two classes of people unequally, we first determine if the two classes are “suspect,” classes. If the classification is related to race, national origin, or religion, then the courts will strike down the unequal treatment unless the highly exacting standard can be demonstrated: that a compelling governmental interest is being served AND that the law is narrowly tailored the law to achieve that interest. > > If the classification is related to gender, then the courts will strike down the unequal treatment unless a more moderate standard can be met: it must further an important government interest by means that are substantially related to that interest. > > And finally, if the classification is unrelated those, but still treats two sets of people unequally, the courts will only intervene if the law not even rationally related to a legitimate government interest. . . . Cool, and thank you. None of this contradicts anything I have said in this thread, but thank you. FWIW, these seem like reasonable guidelines, and I don’t object to them particularly. They don’t seem to contradict Obergefell, so there’s no problem there. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2017, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-repeal-and-replace/785871/1003 "2017-06-24T04:47:20Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > (2) if they do, changes in government policy shouldn’t be held responsible. That’s an easy question to answer. “Government policy” is not responsible for anyone’s death. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2017, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-repeal-and-replace/785871/1004 "2017-06-24T04:56:16Z")
> [@tim314](#): > > It’s a question of life and death. If it’s as serious as you say, how did we survive from 1776-2010? ---
**Author:** ![tim314](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim314/32/3468_2.png) [@tim314](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tim314)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2017, 6:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-repeal-and-replace/785871/1005 "2017-06-24T06:08:08Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > If it’s as serious as you say, how did we survive from 1776-2010? Not everyone did. (In fact, none of the ones born in 1776…) The point is, some folks died a lot sooner than they otherwise would have because of the lack of affordable medical care. ---
**Author:** ![tim314](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim314/32/3468_2.png) [@tim314](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tim314)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2017, 6:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-repeal-and-replace/785871/1006 "2017-06-24T06:15:03Z")
Also, I find it hard to believe you seriously thought I was saying “we’d _all_ be dead without the ACA”. That was _never_ the issue. The issue is that some people were completely screwed under the old system… people who were too poor to afford decent insurance, people with preexisting conditions, etc. The purpose of the ACA was to address these gaps, which absolutely are a matter of life and death for the people affected by them. But hey, maybe the Republicans will embrace that as their motto. “Health care – it’s not as serious as people say.” Or, “We survived the 18th century without ever paying for an MRI or a CAT scan… how important can they be?” ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2017, 6:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-repeal-and-replace/785871/1007 "2017-06-24T06:30:31Z")
Mud and leeches was good enough for the Founding Fathers! ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2017, 6:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-repeal-and-replace/785871/1008 "2017-06-24T06:36:34Z")
> [@tim314](#): > > I find it hard to believe you seriously thought I was saying “we’d _all_ be dead without the ACA”. D’Anconia is a character from _Atlas Shrugged_ who said: “Money is made—before it can be looted or mooched—made by the effort of every honest man, each to the extent of his ability. An honest man is one who knows that he can’t consume more than he has produced.” ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2017, 10:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-repeal-and-replace/785871/1009 "2017-06-24T10:58:35Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > That’s an easy question to answer. “Government policy” is not responsible for anyone’s death. War is not responsible for deaths? ---
**Author:** ![tim314](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim314/32/3468_2.png) [@tim314](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tim314)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2017, 11:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-repeal-and-replace/785871/1010 "2017-06-24T11:50:15Z")
> [@marshmallow](#): > > D’Anconia is a character from _Atlas Shrugged_ Ah, that explains a lot. I never read Atlas Shrugged. I attended one lecture in college on “objectivism”, and that was all I could stomach of that bullshit. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2017, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-repeal-and-replace/785871/1011 "2017-06-24T12:20:25Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > That’s an easy question to answer. “Government policy” is not responsible for anyone’s death. Again, this is a very cold comfort to anyone with a life-threatening condition who could afford health care last year, and won’t be able to next year. It’s a bizarre and sophistic argument that _misses the point_. This is a government service that people have gotten used to, and without which they would not be able to survive - akin to saying, “Okay, we’re no longer providing welfare or food stamps - we’re spending that money on buying rich people new yachts, have fun on your own.” Sure, _technically_ the government isn’t killing anyone with that policy, but realistically a lot of people are going to starve as a result of it. > [@D\_Anconia](#): > > If it’s as serious as you say, how did we survive from 1776-2010? This applies equally to the American health care system, the black plague, the holocaust, the great leap forward, the HIV epidemic, and literally _every other thing that didn’t wipe out humanity_, no matter how horrific. The answer is, _not everyone did_. The state of the American health care system in the early 2000s was fucking _scandalous_, even if we remove comparisons to other places. Obamacare was an attempt to improve it. Not a perfectly successful attempt, but a hell of a lot better than it was before. And now, we’re going to remove those gains, and a lot of the people who suffered before will suffer again. A lot of the people who would have died without Obamacare are going to die again. Whether you wish to see this as “the government killing people” misses the point completely. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2017, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-repeal-and-replace/785871/1012 "2017-06-24T14:52:12Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > If it’s as serious as you say, how did we survive from 1776-2010? During most of that time, life expectancy was like 40 years. ---
**Author:** ![Raygun99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Raygun99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raygun99)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2017, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-repeal-and-replace/785871/1013 "2017-06-24T16:09:59Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > During most of that time, life expectancy was like 40 years. Although I would point out that most of the increases in life expectancy from that time period have been in child survival. (which is not to say that great swaths of people didn’t die of easily preventable things today, it’s just that you didn’t get to 45 and say “welp, that’s it for me…”) ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2017, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-repeal-and-replace/785871/1014 "2017-06-24T17:03:14Z")
I don’t understand the technical reasons here, in the Senate rules. The Republicans filibustered the ACA; it had to have 60 votes to pass. Why don’t we have the same opportunity? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2017, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-repeal-and-replace/785871/1015 "2017-06-24T17:59:41Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > I don’t understand the technical reasons here, in the Senate rules. > > The Republicans filibustered the ACA; it had to have 60 votes to pass. Why don’t we have the same opportunity? For health care reform, there are basically two components to any reform: budgetary matters and policy matters. The Senate rules allow for purely budgetary matters to avoid a filibuster. When it comes time for non-budgetary matters to be addressed, Democrats may be able to filibuster that. See prong three here: > **[The GOP’s “three-pronged” health care strategy, explained](https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/3/16/14921772/three-prongs-gop-health-care)** > > Sean Spicer said “prong” 16 separate times at a press briefing this week. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2017, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-repeal-and-replace/785871/1016 "2017-06-25T18:49:44Z")
Are politicians who successfully support legislation EVER honest about the implications and motivations? We all remember Obama trumpeting that you could keep your doctor. I would find the Republican healthcare proposals more palatable if they didn’t say things like, “best health care ever!” If you think that certain classes of people should not have certain types of healthcare subsidized by the federal government, and if you want to reduce taxes on wealthy people and wealthy healthcare/insurance companies, just come out and say so. Can you think of a major national legislation that was accurately sold? ---
**Author:** ![SmartAlecCat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/67e7ee/32.png) [@SmartAlecCat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmartAlecCat)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2017, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-repeal-and-replace/785871/1017 "2017-06-25T21:30:17Z")
> [@Dinsdale](#): > > We all remember Obama trumpeting that you could keep your doctor. With a few reasonable caveats (your doctor didn’t retire, your doctor remained part of your plan, the plan met the minimum requirements, etc.) wasn’t that true? Didn’t the vast, vast majority of us keep our doctors? ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2017, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-repeal-and-replace/785871/1018 "2017-06-25T21:54:58Z")
> [@SmartAlecCat](#): > > With a few reasonable caveats (your doctor didn’t retire, your doctor remained part of your plan, the plan met the minimum requirements, etc.) wasn’t that true? Didn’t the vast, vast majority of us keep our doctors? It was part and parcel with “If you like your health care plan, you can keep it,” which [PolitiFact labeled the “Lie of the Year” in 2013](http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2013/dec/12/lie-year-if-you-like-your-health-care-plan-keep-it/), so speaking generally, no, it was not true. ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2017, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-repeal-and-replace/785871/1019 "2017-06-25T22:01:37Z")
What about the phrase “repeal and replace”? Republicans, unless you actually plan to repeal and replace the ACA, go ahead and drop the meaningless talking point. If the ACA was a car in a parking lot in need of repair, walking around it and poking holes in it with a sharpened tire iron is not taking it away, and is not replacing it with something else. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2017, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-repeal-and-replace/785871/1020 "2017-06-25T22:16:44Z")
I love the imagery of the ACA as a broke-down car, abandoned in a parking lot somewhere. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-repeal-and-replace/785871.md?page=50) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-repeal-and-replace/785871.md?page=52)