# House passes "repeal and replace" **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 4, 2017, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-repeal-and-replace/785871 "2017-05-04T20:53:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 52
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2017, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-repeal-and-replace/785871/1021 "2017-06-25T22:17:42Z")
Keep the imagery of the “repair” in mind, too. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2017, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-repeal-and-replace/785871/1022 "2017-06-26T02:34:01Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > War is not responsible for deaths? No, the people shooting at you are. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2017, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-repeal-and-replace/785871/1023 "2017-06-26T03:00:54Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > No, the people shooting at you are. So the President orders a nuclear strike on Ubekibekstanstan. Are you asserting that the President isn’t actually killing anyone, because it is the young lieutenants in a bunker in Wyoming who are actually turning the keys to launch the missiles? ---
**Author:** ![vivalostwages](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d07c76/32.png) [@vivalostwages](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vivalostwages)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2017, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-repeal-and-replace/785871/1024 "2017-06-26T04:56:43Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > Again, this is a very cold comfort to anyone with a life-threatening condition who could afford health care last year, and won’t be able to next year. It’s a bizarre and sophistic argument that _misses the point_. This is a government service that people have gotten used to, and without which they would not be able to survive - akin to saying, “Okay, we’re no longer providing welfare or food stamps - we’re spending that money on buying rich people new yachts, have fun on your own.” Sure, _technically_ the government isn’t killing anyone with that policy, but realistically a lot of people are going to starve as a result of it. > > This applies equally to the American health care system, the black plague, the holocaust, the great leap forward, the HIV epidemic, and literally _every other thing that didn’t wipe out humanity_, no matter how horrific. The answer is, _not everyone did_. The state of the American health care system in the early 2000s was fucking _scandalous_, even if we remove comparisons to other places. Obamacare was an attempt to improve it. Not a perfectly successful attempt, but a hell of a lot better than it was before. And now, we’re going to remove those gains, and a lot of the people who suffered before will suffer again. A lot of the people who would have died without Obamacare are going to die again. Whether you wish to see this as “the government killing people” misses the point completely. Come on, now…VP Pence just wants people to take some personal responsibility for their damn cancer, MS, birth defects, car accidents, and other expensive crap: ``` Before summer’s out, we’ll repeal/replace Obamacare w/ system based on personal responsibility, free-market competition & state-based reform pic.twitter.com/JzCyxX9kJb — Mike Pence (@mike_pence) June 24, 2017 ``` ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2017, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-repeal-and-replace/785871/1025 "2017-06-26T05:47:41Z")
> [@vivalostwages](#): > > Come on, now…VP Pence just wants people to take some personal responsibility for their damn cancer, MS, birth defects, car accidents, and other expensive crap: > > ``` > Before summer’s out, we’ll repeal/replace Obamacare w/ system based on personal responsibility, free-market competition & state-based reform pic.twitter.com/JzCyxX9kJb > > — Mike Pence (@mike_pence) June 24, 2017 > > ``` Should people take responsibility for their smoking, drunk driving, overeating, and gun use? ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2017, 6:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-repeal-and-replace/785871/1026 "2017-06-26T06:22:48Z")
What he’s trying to do to Medicaid won’t just restore the status quo. I am very, very scared that I will lose my coverage. I’ve had coverage since the 1990s. But Arkansas is not a very rich state, and moving is not really an option for me. Move to state funding, and we are in a huge mess. And, no, I’m not falling for it as a negotiating tactic either. Because the status quo would be better doesn’t mean I’ll accept it. The ACA is objectively better than what we had before. And I say that even though my sister’s insurance went up to where she can’t afford to go to the doctor. I love my sister, but she is one person. The objective facts show that things are better. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ace)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2017, 7:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-repeal-and-replace/785871/1027 "2017-06-26T07:03:02Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Should people take responsibility for their smoking, drunk driving, overeating, and gun use? Should people take responsibility for causing numerous deaths simply to increase the wealth divide? (Of course, they won’t. It’s not their problem.) ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2017, 8:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-repeal-and-replace/785871/1028 "2017-06-26T08:05:55Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Should people take responsibility for their smoking, drunk driving, overeating, and gun use? If that’s what we’re going for, then let’s have a bill that does _that_. Which specifically targets irresponsible behavior and makes people pay up for it, and doesn’t fuck over everyone else. This ain’t that. This is like passing a bill against cutting people’s skin with absolutely no caveats, and when surgeons complain, saying, “What, so you’re in favor of stabbings?” Obviously not, _but the bill goes so far beyond that scope that the objection misses the point completely_. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2017, 11:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-repeal-and-replace/785871/1029 "2017-06-26T11:31:48Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Should people take responsibility for their smoking, drunk driving, overeating, and gun use? To the extent that they are criminal acts, of course. To the extent that they should be strongly discouraged, and even arm-twisted, from engaging in pointlessly risky behaviors, of course. To the extent that I feel some need to pile punishment onto people who may be dealing with cancer and other horrible diseases that will make them and their families miserable, perhaps wreck the financial state of their families, and who knows what other impacts they are already dealing with; no. I have compassion for sick people, not vengeance. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2017, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-repeal-and-replace/785871/1030 "2017-06-26T13:17:22Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > The objective facts show that things are better. Not for me, and I’m not alone. I had significantly better health insurance for significantly less cost pre-Obamacare. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2017, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-repeal-and-replace/785871/1031 "2017-06-26T14:11:59Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Not for me, and I’m not alone. I had significantly better health insurance for significantly less cost pre-Obamacare. I don’t know how much your health insurance costs have gone up, but I am curious about a matter of principle. I’m not talking about your experience, or what various laws have done or might do; just a simplified scenario to examine one principle. Let’s say you have a health plan you are generally satisfied with that you think is at a reasonable cost. Not cheap, just reasonable. But you know that the consequences of this reasonably priced plan are that many millions of Americans will not have health insurance. The alternative is that you pay a premium – let’s just say 20% – for the same coverage, but those millions of Americans have some kind of coverage. Which scenario would you choose? I have no problem saying that I’d chose the latter, on the principle that I often pay for things that benefit society, but I don’t notice any personal benefit. I’m thinking of things like schools, health care for the elderly, roads in places I have never been, various military programs, and so on. I think those things are all great and I don’t expect to receive direct benefits from them. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2017, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-repeal-and-replace/785871/1032 "2017-06-26T14:31:11Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > If that’s what we’re going for, then let’s have a bill that does _that_. Which specifically targets irresponsible behavior and makes people pay up for it, and doesn’t fuck over everyone else. This ain’t that. Yeah. If we want to say to the smoker who seeks care for respiratory/cardiovascular complaints, give the a scrip for Chantix and tell them to come back when they’ve stopped. To the morbidly obese person complaining of any number of problems, give them a pass to a gym and dietary counseling, and tell them to come back when they get w/in 150% of their expected BMI. We could make all manner of other distinctions if those reflected our society’s values. What are the values underlying these proposals? ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2017, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-repeal-and-replace/785871/1033 "2017-06-26T14:50:30Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > I don’t know how much your health insurance costs have gone up, but I am curious about a matter of principle. I’m not talking about your experience, or what various laws have done or might do; just a simplified scenario to examine one principle. > > Let’s say you have a health plan you are generally satisfied with that you think is at a reasonable cost. Not cheap, just reasonable. But you know that the consequences of this reasonably priced plan are that many millions of Americans will not have health insurance. > > The alternative is that you pay a premium – let’s just say 20% – for the same coverage, but those millions of Americans have some kind of coverage. > > Which scenario would you choose? I have no problem saying that I’d chose the latter, on the principle that I often pay for things that benefit society, but I don’t notice any personal benefit. I’m thinking of things like schools, health care for the elderly, roads in places I have never been, various military programs, and so on. I think those things are all great and I don’t expect to receive direct benefits from them. Just me, an extra 20%, in exchange for “many millions of Americans” getting some health insurance? I’d probably do it. If everyone in circumstances similar to mine also had to pay an extra 20%, perhaps not. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2017, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-repeal-and-replace/785871/1034 "2017-06-26T17:16:28Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > I believe that “equal protection” is correctly applied here, but so did five SCOTUS justices. Four felt otherwise. Do you accuse the five in the majority of “using whatever principles would have produced the result” they desired? Or is there room for belief that they ruled on their best understanding of equal protection, holding that, while it must have some limits, it extends far enough to protect gays in their right to marry? > > If I am to be held guilty of “wanting an outcome” – and I certainly do want certain outcomes! – then who among us is innocent of having desires and preferences? Must the high nine recuse themselves, because they, too, have beliefs? But this is the question that is being begged. What principles support the idea of mandatory same sex marriage yet reject marriage between an adult father and his adult daughter (or, alternatively, two six-year olds)? The answer being given is: there are many sound arguments for distinguishing between the two. However, that is not the answer to the question being asked. The question being asked is: What are the sound arguments for distinguishing the two that are not based on subjective beliefs of the judges, but upon constitutional principles? Because those should be the ones that count. I might believe that same sex marriage should be legal, but six year old marriage should not. I might believe that sodomy should be legal, but that incest should not. That’s fine as ultravires, the individual. If I am ultravires, the judge, I must be able to articulate these principles from something other than my own personal belief of right and wrong. ETA: And as Bricker has eloquently stated, “equal protection” is not enough. ---
**Author:** ![vivalostwages](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d07c76/32.png) [@vivalostwages](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vivalostwages)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2017, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-repeal-and-replace/785871/1035 "2017-06-26T17:23:06Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Should people take responsibility for their smoking, drunk driving, overeating, and gun use? In an ideal world, people wouldn’t smoke, drive drunk, overeat, or misuse guns. In our world, some people smoke for decades and still keep living. Others never smoke and still get lung cancer. It would be great if everyone ate healthy, nutritious food all the time…assuming they could afford to do so. I don’t believe it’s possible to micro-analyze everything that a patient has or has not done in his/her life and then determine whether that person has displayed personal responsibility in regard to health. This is why people like Rep. Mo Brooks (R-Alabama) are full of crap: [http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/columnists/schmich/ct-health-care-mary-schmich-0505-20170504-column.html](http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/columnists/schmich/ct-health-care-mary-schmich-0505-20170504-column.html) We can pull out all the stops to keep ourselves healthy and still end up with some horrific disease or disorder. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2017, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-repeal-and-replace/785871/1036 "2017-06-26T18:29:44Z")
> [@Johnny\_Ace](#): > > Should people take responsibility for causing numerous deaths simply to increase the wealth divide? IF the ACHA should pass and be signed into law, it won’t cause any deaths. And “increasing the wealth divide” is simple partisan leftwing nonsense. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2017, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-repeal-and-replace/785871/1037 "2017-06-26T18:30:23Z")
Are there no prisons? Are there no workhouses? ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2017, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-repeal-and-replace/785871/1038 "2017-06-26T18:35:15Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > IF the ACHA should pass and be signed into law, it won’t cause any deaths. > > And “increasing the wealth divide” is simple partisan leftwing nonsense. I thought you objected to opinions in GD. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2017, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-repeal-and-replace/785871/1039 "2017-06-26T18:41:34Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > IF the ACHA should pass and be signed into law, it won’t cause any deaths. So the death rate in the United States will be unchanged if AHCA passes? Apart from my opinion that your claim is ridiculous, shouldn’t any good health care reform proposal involve _lowering_ the death rate? ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2017, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-repeal-and-replace/785871/1040 "2017-06-26T18:45:29Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > So the death rate in the United States will be unchanged if AHCA passes? Correlation is not the same as causation, as I am sure you know. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-repeal-and-replace/785871.md?page=51) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-passes-repeal-and-replace/785871.md?page=53)