# House raises the age to buy semi-automatic rifles to 21 (but unlikely to pass in the Senate) **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [June 9, 2022, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-raises-the-age-to-buy-semi-automatic-rifles-to-21-but-unlikely-to-pass-in-the-senate/965901 "2022-06-09T00:37:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2022, 11:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-raises-the-age-to-buy-semi-automatic-rifles-to-21-but-unlikely-to-pass-in-the-senate/965901/121 "2022-06-13T11:08:06Z")
They don’t need thousands of dollars worth. They just need one. But how are you going to get their “thousands of dollars” worth of guns if you don’t know where they are or what they own? Are you going to search every single place he may have access? His mothers house? His friend Daves house? Not everybody keeps their guns all in one place. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Librarian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_librarian/32/402_2.png) [@The\_Librarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Librarian)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2022, 11:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-raises-the-age-to-buy-semi-automatic-rifles-to-21-but-unlikely-to-pass-in-the-senate/965901/122 "2022-06-13T11:18:50Z")
Excellent argument for comprehensive gun registration. ---
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2022, 11:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-raises-the-age-to-buy-semi-automatic-rifles-to-21-but-unlikely-to-pass-in-the-senate/965901/123 "2022-06-13T11:32:19Z")
You’re forgetting, I oppose red flag laws. But thank you for bringing up the ol’ slippery slope! ---
**Author:** ![The\_Librarian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_librarian/32/402_2.png) [@The\_Librarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Librarian)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2022, 11:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-raises-the-age-to-buy-semi-automatic-rifles-to-21-but-unlikely-to-pass-in-the-senate/965901/124 "2022-06-13T11:43:33Z")
Isn’t that one of those rhetorical fallacies? ---
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2022, 11:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-raises-the-age-to-buy-semi-automatic-rifles-to-21-but-unlikely-to-pass-in-the-senate/965901/125 "2022-06-13T11:47:33Z")
A fallacy is the notion that a gun control law will be the magic bullet (pun intended) that will break the back of violent crime. None of them ever deliver on their promises. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2022, 12:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-raises-the-age-to-buy-semi-automatic-rifles-to-21-but-unlikely-to-pass-in-the-senate/965901/126 "2022-06-13T12:03:16Z")
> [@pkbites](#): > > I think the more these red flag laws get activated the more people who are afraid they might be subject to it are go to make sure they have a spare somewhere you won’t find. So… gun owners are basically criminals, people who enact long term plans to violate the law? What a surprise, gun owners are more concerned about the government taking away their weapons because they’ve become a dangerous unhinged person, than they are concerned about becoming a dangerous unhinged person with a gun. ETA: > [@pkbites](#): > > None of them ever deliver on their promises. This isn’t because gun laws don’t work, it’s because of criminal gun owners, and the “law abiding” gun owners who protect them. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2022, 12:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-raises-the-age-to-buy-semi-automatic-rifles-to-21-but-unlikely-to-pass-in-the-senate/965901/127 "2022-06-13T12:21:20Z")
> [@pkbites](#): > > Another thought: if a person is clearly a danger to himself an/or others, why take his guns. Why not institutionalize him? Being a danger to ones self or others is a justified reason for commitment. So you’d rather see someone’s liberty taken away, even though that’s protected by the 5th and 14th Amendments, than having their guns taken away? Second Amendment rights are are more important than liberty rights under the 5th and 14th Amendments? ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2022, 12:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-raises-the-age-to-buy-semi-automatic-rifles-to-21-but-unlikely-to-pass-in-the-senate/965901/128 "2022-06-13T12:29:18Z")
Yeah, that’s the thing I’m seeing in a lot of the debate now, including literally in the floor debate at Congress last week - arguments from the Right that this can be easily handled with the involuntary committal laws already in place. (Wait, honest question: isn’t involuntary committal a mark against you in a future background check?) ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2022, 12:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-raises-the-age-to-buy-semi-automatic-rifles-to-21-but-unlikely-to-pass-in-the-senate/965901/129 "2022-06-13T12:31:49Z")
> [@pkbites](#): > > It’s impossible to know how many guns an individual owns. > You take away some nuts guns out of his house. How do you know he doesn’t have one in a safe deposit box at his bank? Or at his mothers house? Or hidden in his garage. > [@The\_Librarian](#): > > Excellent argument for comprehensive gun registration. Just what I was going to say. And yes, it will take more than a decade before we actually register the bulk of guns held by people who don’t want their guns registered (which is going to have a large overlap with people who use guns to kill other people.) But you have to start somewhere. And maybe, in a couple of decades, we can tame our gun problem. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2022, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-raises-the-age-to-buy-semi-automatic-rifles-to-21-but-unlikely-to-pass-in-the-senate/965901/130 "2022-06-13T12:38:31Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > {…} Imagine the outcry if “Red Flag Laws” were enacted to infringe on other rights. Funny that you mention that, > [@pkbites](#): > > {…} Another thought: if a person is clearly a danger to himself an/or others, why take his guns. Why not institutionalize him? Being a danger to ones self or others is a justified reason for commitment. {…} But, hey, it’s clearly the second most important amendment or they wouldn’t have written it second right? ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2022, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-raises-the-age-to-buy-semi-automatic-rifles-to-21-but-unlikely-to-pass-in-the-senate/965901/131 "2022-06-13T12:43:41Z")
> [@pkbites](#): > > It’s impossible to know how many guns an individual owns. That’s a great argument for a national gun registry. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2022, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-raises-the-age-to-buy-semi-automatic-rifles-to-21-but-unlikely-to-pass-in-the-senate/965901/132 "2022-06-13T12:52:07Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > But, hey, it’s clearly the second most important amendment or they wouldn’t have written it second right? You can imagine the thoughts of the person who has been involuntarily committed: “I’m locked up against my will, but thank God, my guns are free!” ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2022, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-raises-the-age-to-buy-semi-automatic-rifles-to-21-but-unlikely-to-pass-in-the-senate/965901/133 "2022-06-13T12:57:07Z")
> [@pkbites](#): > > I think the more these red flag laws get activated the more people who are afraid they might be subject to it are go to make sure they have a spare somewhere you won’t find. Only the kind of criminal-minded person who shouldn’t have a gun in the first place would plot and scheme to hide weapons away specifically because they want to violate the law. So if we find that (general you) you’re hiding a spare, IE are in possession of an illegal firearm, you should go to jail and lose your future right to bear arms (since you’ve shown beyond reasonable doubt that you are the sort of person who cannot be trusted with a gun). ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2022, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-raises-the-age-to-buy-semi-automatic-rifles-to-21-but-unlikely-to-pass-in-the-senate/965901/134 "2022-06-13T13:00:36Z")
Yeah, the very notion that “Red Flag Laws” that take folk’s pew pews away for a few days is an infringement on their rights and may be abused, but “Red Flag Laws” that lock them up in a mental hospital for a few days somehow isn’t an infringement on their rights and won’t be abused is just mind boggling. ---
**Author:** ![DavidNRockies](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidnrockies/32/6279_2.png) [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2022, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-raises-the-age-to-buy-semi-automatic-rifles-to-21-but-unlikely-to-pass-in-the-senate/965901/135 "2022-06-13T13:14:18Z")
Since the firearms industry is – first, foremost, and above all else – an industry … I wonder if those who profit from the sale of guns (yes: I know) will avail themselves of @pkbites logic and inform gun buyers that red flag laws create unacceptable risk to them (the gun buyer): > [@](#): > > Maybe you should buy two of everything, and a few more ‘for good measure.’ The only safe and responsible thing to do would be to hide a few at your relatives’ houses, buried in the yard, in a local park. Use your GPS and ‘geocache’ a shit-ton of ammunition – a few full magazines at a time – all over a ten mile radius of your home. > > Got a favorite vacation spot ? Next time you go, bring a few thousand rounds of ammo and an entrenching tool. You can pick up a vacuum food sealer … right here … while you’re at it. Protect everything from the elements. > > You store an AR at your friend’s house. He stores one at yours. They won’t red flag _both_ of you, right ? It’s just ‘diversifying your portfolio.’ It’s just smart. “The answer isn’t _fewer_ guns; it’s _more_ guns” is anything but new in the NRA playbook. Is our friend, here, just foreshadowing ? ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2022, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-raises-the-age-to-buy-semi-automatic-rifles-to-21-but-unlikely-to-pass-in-the-senate/965901/136 "2022-06-13T13:27:05Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > it will take more than a decade before we actually register the bulk of guns held by people who don’t want their guns registered Millions of gun owners, including me, will refuse to register their guns. Registration simply won’t work. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2022, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-raises-the-age-to-buy-semi-automatic-rifles-to-21-but-unlikely-to-pass-in-the-senate/965901/137 "2022-06-13T13:37:38Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > Millions of gun owners, including me, will refuse to register their guns. Registration simply won’t work Millions of gun owners will violate the law? Fine, that’s what we have police for. Maybe people who are so easily willing to become criminal felons shouldn’t be trusted with firearms in the first place. By all means, disobey the law and out yourself as a criminal. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Librarian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_librarian/32/402_2.png) [@The\_Librarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Librarian)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2022, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-raises-the-age-to-buy-semi-automatic-rifles-to-21-but-unlikely-to-pass-in-the-senate/965901/138 "2022-06-13T13:45:27Z")
So taking the (legally purchased) weapons away from frustrated kids doesn’t work to mitigate school shootings? Do you really think there is any evidence to support that thesis or do you agree that is about as dumb as it sounds? ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2022, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-raises-the-age-to-buy-semi-automatic-rifles-to-21-but-unlikely-to-pass-in-the-senate/965901/139 "2022-06-13T13:58:59Z")
> [@pkbites](#): > > They don’t need thousands of dollars worth. They just need one. Didn’t we just have a dozen posts debating whether the guns and rounds were worth $7,000 or $10,000? They need the assault rifle, rounds, body armor and helmet (otherwise the security guard might end the shooting right at the start) _in addition to_ however much stuff gets seized by the red flag law. > [@pkbites](#): > > But how are you going to get their “thousands of dollars” worth of guns if you don’t know where they are or what they own? Are you going to search every single place he may have access? His mothers house? His friend Daves house? Not everybody keeps their guns all in one place. Well as several have mentioned, this is a great argument for registration. But also, the point of red flag laws is largely that concerned adults who _know the person_ can flag them as a particular risk. So, yes, in most cases they will be aware of their arsenal and that’s part of _why_ they got flagged. And yes, **maybe** the nutter will have extra supplies elsewhere that their family / friend / cop didn’t know about. This is terrible argument for never seizing the guns we \*do\* know about. ---
**Author:** ![ParallelLines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/parallellines/32/3575_2.png) [@ParallelLines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ParallelLines)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2022, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-raises-the-age-to-buy-semi-automatic-rifles-to-21-but-unlikely-to-pass-in-the-senate/965901/140 "2022-06-13T14:22:57Z")
> [@pkbites](#): > > > [@ParallelLines](#): > > > > Still, it is a help, and Red Flag laws are a good idea that I support - if properly implemented. > > How, exactly, could a red flag law be effective in any way? I would prefer that if you quote a section of my text, you actually address the full text you quote. Because I did, you know, include the text after the dash you know. For example, I’m not a big fan of the option under the FL law where you can have a one full year plus one request for renewal - that strikes me as burdensome since you have to pay out of pocket for a lawyer or argue the case yourself. But 2 weeks (and I’d probably be happy with up to 2-3 months as an option)? No, I don’t find that burdensome. For that matter, these laws are generally written that they can be contested, and depending on the state a large portion are denied, which would inform how a properly implemented law would/should work. > **[Red Flag Laws Are Saving Lives. They Could Save More. - Stateline](https://stateline.org/2021/10/05/red-flag-laws-are-saving-lives-they-could-save-more/)** > > If you or someone you know is concerned about domestic violence, you can call 800-799-SAFE (7233) or visit TheHotline.org for confidential help. The National Suicide Prevention Hotline is 800-273-8255. Alyssa Shaw’s job is to guide Seattle-area... There are lots of other quibbles, which is why in a perfect world I would get to write the legislation myself complete with a ‘real world’ version that makes my intents clear, but that doesn’t happen, thus a general “if properly implemented” was included. Back to the rest of your post. First, “effective in any way?” Let’s be clear, by that statement, if taken literally, then one saved life means it was effective. So if you want to nitpick, you, as other posters pointed out, admit it would likely be effective by that standard. But that’s fine, you’ve also admitted later on that you are concerned that it’s a slippery slope, and guess what, I agree! After all, if you’ve been reading the thread, you know I’m one of the moderate gun owners on the board. I see the concerns, and I’ve mentioned the whys and wherefores in a dozen other gun posts. But I’m looking more at the min-max POV thread we’ve been working on. I think it’s inevitable that gun laws change as culture changes, up to and including the repeal (or repeal and replace) of the 2nd amendment a few decades down the line. In the meantime, laws that balance the rights of the individual (such as the 2nd) and the rest of the population should be considered, especially ones like red flag laws that are based on a belief in a clear and present (and generally semi-immediate danger) to self and others. Sure, it won’t stop all school shootings, although your scenario about hidden guns really tends to apply to old folks with a lot of hidden and older guns, rather than younger shooters who will show up via FFL transfers. And for that matter, although this thread is provoked by the school shootings, I suspect Red flag laws can and do a much better job of catching near suicides and (probably mostly) domestic violence. This may not get the headlines that school shootings do, but it’s a horrible fact of life. And in these cases, the people most likely to advise the police of a flag, _are_ the sort to know how many guns the owner has. Lastly, as a responsible gun owner, fie on you for suggesting a firearm you own be left outside your own control, even if it’s with a good friend. Whether as a ‘hedge’ against having yours taken or not, I don’t trust anyone to properly secure or safely use my firearms, no more than I would leave a carry gun unsupervised even for a moment so that it didn’t get in my way. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-raises-the-age-to-buy-semi-automatic-rifles-to-21-but-unlikely-to-pass-in-the-senate/965901.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-raises-the-age-to-buy-semi-automatic-rifles-to-21-but-unlikely-to-pass-in-the-senate/965901.md?page=8)