# House raises the age to buy semi-automatic rifles to 21 (but unlikely to pass in the Senate) **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [June 9, 2022, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-raises-the-age-to-buy-semi-automatic-rifles-to-21-but-unlikely-to-pass-in-the-senate/965901 "2022-06-09T00:37:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2022, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-raises-the-age-to-buy-semi-automatic-rifles-to-21-but-unlikely-to-pass-in-the-senate/965901/161 "2022-06-15T02:26:04Z")
> [@pkbites](#): > > So it’s ok to confiscate someones property over unsubstantiated claims? Happens all the time with, e.g., allegations of abusive treatment of pets. Animal control authorities can impound your pets if they (the authorities) believe you’re treating them (the pets) cruelly or abusively. Nothing needs to be proved against you for the authorities to be able to remove the pets from your control. Of course, the removal is only temporary pending investigation and proving or failing to prove a case, and I would expect similar constraints on authority’s powers to apply in the case of gun impoundment too. In the short term, however, the authorities have a duty to weigh your rights as a property/pet owner against the risk that you genuinely pose a threat of serious harm. I don’t have a problem with that. > [@pkbites](#): > > Or would that be too easy to point out how rife with abuse red flag laws could be? Laws permitting gun ownership are rife with abuse too, of course; in many cases, very dangerous and destructive abuse. But those abuses we’re just expected to put up with. I’m in favor of a vigorous civil liberties program pushing back against abuse of red-flag laws, but given the massive ongoing abuse of gun ownership in this country, ISTM that red-flag laws are currently one of our best bets to alleviate the problem. As Thing.Fish notes, temporarily taking away someone’s guns on the basis of a mistaken allegation, although unjust, is better than temporarily incarcerating someone on the same basis. And if we really want to do something to control the massive ongoing abuses of gun ownership in the US, we’re going to have to accept the existence of some laws that occasionally result in situations that are temporarily unjust to some innocent gun owners. Lord knows the gun owners have enthusiastically advocated for laws that all too often result in situations that are unjust to other innocent people. Often permanently so. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2022, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-raises-the-age-to-buy-semi-automatic-rifles-to-21-but-unlikely-to-pass-in-the-senate/965901/162 "2022-06-15T02:31:07Z")
> [@pkbites](#): > > How about not doing anything until any claim is actually proven? That’s working out real well, if we place no value on human life and maximum value on how easy it is to get and keep guns. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2022, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-raises-the-age-to-buy-semi-automatic-rifles-to-21-but-unlikely-to-pass-in-the-senate/965901/163 "2022-06-15T02:39:06Z")
> [@pkbites](#): > > So it’s ok to confiscate someones property over unsubstantiated claims? I thought you were a police officer? Confiscat[ing] someone[']s property over unsubstantiated claims is a routine aspect of police work in many jurisdictions (I congratulate you if this was not an issue where you served, but it us a very serious issue elsewhere) > **[Asset Forfeiture Abuse | American Civil Liberties Union](https://www.aclu.org/issues/criminal-law-reform/reforming-police/asset-forfeiture-abuse)** > > The ACLU works in courts, legislatures, and communities to defend and preserve the individual rights and liberties that the Constitution and the laws of the United States guarantee everyone in this country. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2022, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-raises-the-age-to-buy-semi-automatic-rifles-to-21-but-unlikely-to-pass-in-the-senate/965901/164 "2022-06-15T02:49:39Z")
> nor be obliged to relinquish his property, where it may be necessary for public use, without just compensation. The Fifth Amendment to the United States Constitution ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2022, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-raises-the-age-to-buy-semi-automatic-rifles-to-21-but-unlikely-to-pass-in-the-senate/965901/165 "2022-06-15T03:06:43Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Happens all the time with, e.g., allegations of abusive treatment of pets Oh hell. I have a friend whose child died suddenly and unexpectedly of some kind of seizure, and child protective services took their other child away until the autopsy cleared them of having harmed the dead child. They were in shock and in grief and their child was dragged off into foster care. It was horrible and unjust. And it was also the right thing for the authorities to do. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2022, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-raises-the-age-to-buy-semi-automatic-rifles-to-21-but-unlikely-to-pass-in-the-senate/965901/166 "2022-06-15T03:09:45Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > > nor be obliged to relinquish his property, where it may be necessary for public use, without just compensation. > > The Fifth Amendment to the United States Constitution Umm, where’s the “where it may be necessary for public use” in this, not even actually, proposed law? ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2022, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-raises-the-age-to-buy-semi-automatic-rifles-to-21-but-unlikely-to-pass-in-the-senate/965901/167 "2022-06-15T04:07:07Z")
> [@pkbites](#): > > So it’s ok to confiscate someones property over unsubstantiated claims? > > How about not doing anything until any claim is actually proven? So, search warrants are unjustifiable? They’re used to gather evidence which may be used to prove a claim against an accused person. If you have to wait for a conviction, then search warrants can only be used after conviction? ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2022, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-raises-the-age-to-buy-semi-automatic-rifles-to-21-but-unlikely-to-pass-in-the-senate/965901/168 "2022-06-15T05:40:41Z")
That has to do with the permanent seizure of real property through eminent domain. Nothing at all to do with this discussion. ---
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2022, 6:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-raises-the-age-to-buy-semi-automatic-rifles-to-21-but-unlikely-to-pass-in-the-senate/965901/169 "2022-06-15T06:04:22Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > > [@pkbites](#): > > > > So it’s ok to confiscate someones property over unsubstantiated claims? > > I thought you were a police officer? Confiscat[ing] someone[']s property over unsubstantiated claims is a routine aspect of police work in many jurisdictions (I congratulate you if this was not an issue where you served, but it us a very serious issue elsewhere) > > [Asset Forfeiture Abuse | American Civil Liberties Union](https://www.aclu.org/issues/criminal-law-reform/reforming-police/asset-forfeiture-abuse) Still am. I have consistently voiced my opposition to civil forfeiture laws on these boards. Even the ACLU, an organization not friendly to gun owners, has raised serious issues regarding red flag laws. > **[ACLU of Rhode Island Raises Red Flags Over “Red Flag” Gun Legislation](https://www.riaclu.org/en/news/aclu-rhode-island-raises-red-flags-over-red-flag-gun-legislation)** > > The ACLU of Rhode Island today issued a fourteen-page analysis that expresses “great concern” about pending state legislation that would allow family members and law enforcement officers to petition ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2022, 10:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-raises-the-age-to-buy-semi-automatic-rifles-to-21-but-unlikely-to-pass-in-the-senate/965901/170 "2022-06-15T10:12:48Z")
> [@pkbites](#): > > So it’s ok to confiscate someones property over unsubstantiated claims? > > How about not doing anything until any claim is actually proven? > Or would that be too easy to point out how rife with abuse red flag laws could be? How about we apply a similar level of scrutiny to red flag seizures as police are required to use when they snatch human beings off the street and put them in a cell? ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2022, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-raises-the-age-to-buy-semi-automatic-rifles-to-21-but-unlikely-to-pass-in-the-senate/965901/171 "2022-06-15T13:24:09Z")
I must have missed in the Amendment where it specifies that just compensation must only be paid for real estate. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2022, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-raises-the-age-to-buy-semi-automatic-rifles-to-21-but-unlikely-to-pass-in-the-senate/965901/172 "2022-06-15T13:38:20Z")
It’s not, but it _is_ only necessary if the item is being appropriated for public use. My understanding that guns taken for red flag laws are not going to be for public use. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2022, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-raises-the-age-to-buy-semi-automatic-rifles-to-21-but-unlikely-to-pass-in-the-senate/965901/173 "2022-06-15T13:41:41Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > My understanding that guns taken for red flag laws are not going to be for public use. Landfill ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2022, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-raises-the-age-to-buy-semi-automatic-rifles-to-21-but-unlikely-to-pass-in-the-senate/965901/174 "2022-06-15T13:41:45Z")
Red Flag laws are not for public use. But banning is ‘for the public good’, and therefore for ‘public use’. So if someone legally owns something and the government decides to take it for the good of society, the just compensation must be provided. Buy-back programs are voluntary, and someone may choose to surrender a $1,500 firearm for a $25 gift card; but taking of property unrelated to a crime without just compensation would violate the 5th Amendment. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2022, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-raises-the-age-to-buy-semi-automatic-rifles-to-21-but-unlikely-to-pass-in-the-senate/965901/175 "2022-06-15T13:44:48Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > Red Flag laws are not for public use. But banning is ‘for the public good’, and therefore for ‘public use’. That’s a pretty amusing take on things being banned. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2022, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-raises-the-age-to-buy-semi-automatic-rifles-to-21-but-unlikely-to-pass-in-the-senate/965901/176 "2022-06-15T13:49:59Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > but taking of property unrelated to a crime without just compensation would violate the 5th Amendment. If certain guns are illegal, possessing them IS related to a crime, just like possessing cocaine. Or should we pay coke dealers fair market value for any coke we seize? ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2022, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-raises-the-age-to-buy-semi-automatic-rifles-to-21-but-unlikely-to-pass-in-the-senate/965901/177 "2022-06-15T13:55:58Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > taking of property unrelated to a crime without just compensation would violate the 5th Amendment. It’s a luxury item that’s not worth the cost of an attorney. In a society where police kill people for a parking violation, I doubt it will get much attention. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2022, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-raises-the-age-to-buy-semi-automatic-rifles-to-21-but-unlikely-to-pass-in-the-senate/965901/178 "2022-06-15T14:00:00Z")
It’s sometimes hard to tell what someone’s point is when they just pop up and quote part of an amendment as though that makes their point for them. I’m still not sure what your point is, nor what it was in reply to, nor whether you think that you actually made a good point at all. So, tackle the first, red flag laws do not take away guns permanently, so there is no reason that they would need to be compensated for. If it is found that there _is_ good reason to take them away permanently, then maybe. OTOH, Let’s say I rob a bank with a gun. I own a whole bunch of other guns as well. When I get out of jail, do I get those guns back or get compensated for them? They weren’t used in the commission of a crime. And to tackle the second, who said anything about banning? Was that in response to an actual post in this thread, or was it just a random non-sequitur that you chose to throw in for some reason? In any case, if something were to be banned, it would be nice for the govt to offer a buy-back program, but I don’t see as how it would be constitutionally required. If you possess a banned gun, then you are in illegal possession of it. Possessing it would be a crime, so there would be no need to compensate for it. I don’t think that your “for the public good” = “for public use” holds up. They don’t mean the same thing, at all. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2022, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-raises-the-age-to-buy-semi-automatic-rifles-to-21-but-unlikely-to-pass-in-the-senate/965901/179 "2022-06-15T14:05:56Z")
Congress seems to be agonizing over a vote on the OP bill which alleges to protect school children. But, passage of the bill to add protection for Kavanaugh (et al) was hypersonic. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2022, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-raises-the-age-to-buy-semi-automatic-rifles-to-21-but-unlikely-to-pass-in-the-senate/965901/180 "2022-06-15T14:14:50Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > That’s a pretty amusing take on things being banned. If something is banned, and it is not for the public good, then what is the reason for banning it? > [@k9bfriender](#): > > It’s sometimes hard to tell what someone’s point is… > > So, tackle the first, red flag laws do not take away guns permanently, so there is no reason that they would need to be compensated for. I did not connect banning and red flag laws. They are separate issues. Red Flag would take guns away (ostensibly) temporarily, for good cause. Banning, which has nothing to do with red flag laws, take property when no crime has been committed. > [@Babale](#): > > If certain guns are illegal, possessing them IS related to a crime, just like possessing cocaine. But it’s an ex post facto crime. Anyway, I started this thread to discuss the raising of the age to purchase a semi-automatic rifle to 21; not to start Yet Another Gun Control thread. I’m guilty of hijacking my own thread. If anyone wants to talk about banning, I think we should do it in a differenc thread. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-raises-the-age-to-buy-semi-automatic-rifles-to-21-but-unlikely-to-pass-in-the-senate/965901.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-raises-the-age-to-buy-semi-automatic-rifles-to-21-but-unlikely-to-pass-in-the-senate/965901.md?page=10)