# House Republicans stand stalwart for Wilson **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 15, 2009, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-republicans-stand-stalwart-for-wilson/510235 "2009-09-15T21:32:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2009, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-republicans-stand-stalwart-for-wilson/510235/81 "2009-09-17T01:05:43Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > [All that said - new subject] > I am getting absolutely, 100%, sick and tired of your (you, **Scylla** , the SDMB poster) acting as if your posts can only mean one thing. You choose to fltter-flatter about with your posts, you choose to make your posts as ambiguous as you possibly can, then you accuse your opponents of misinterpreting your posts or reading your mind, then when you are asked to help us interpret your posts, you act as if they should be crystal clear, even though we have, demonstrably, by your lights, misinterpreted them. So fuck off. You are **so** full of shit. What kind of idiot would you have to be to get that it would be “ok for a Democrat to do what Wilson did?” If one argues that a particular murderer should not get the death penalty, it does not reasonably follow that the person is arguing that it’s ok to murder people. Only a dishonest douchebag would make that argument. You **know** that I don’t think it’s ok for a Democrat to do what Wilson said. Why would you say that’s what I’m saying? Dishonesty, or stupidity. You’re not **that** stupid. So take your faux indignance and stick it up your ass. Debate honestly what the other person is arguing and you won’t have these problems. So, no. I won’t fuck off. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2009, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-republicans-stand-stalwart-for-wilson/510235/82 "2009-09-17T01:09:33Z")
> [@Enderw24](#): > > Purely for the sake of argument, I’ll play along and say “yes, the President lied.” > > Give me your best here. Shoot from the hip all six barrels of your gotcha gun. How is that in any way equivalent to what Joe Wilson did? I have no shot. It was rhetorical. Why would Obama lie when he said Wilson offered him a prompt and unreserved apology? It makes no sense, which is my point. So, I have nothing. Sorry. ---
**Author:** ![Gfactor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9de053/32.png) [@Gfactor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gfactor)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2009, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-republicans-stand-stalwart-for-wilson/510235/83 "2009-09-17T01:24:38Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > So fuck off. Reminder: [QUOTE=Restricted language in the Pit] The following expressions should not be directed at other posters. fuck you and variants, e.g., go fuck yourself, fuck off and die [/QUOTE] [Restricted language in the Pit - The BBQ Pit - Straight Dope Message Board](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=508858) Please refrain. No warning issued. **Gfactor** Pit Moderator ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2009, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-republicans-stand-stalwart-for-wilson/510235/84 "2009-09-17T01:31:17Z")
> [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > They didn’t break the same rule. Wilson did not have the floor. What is the penalty for speaking out of turn? Is it censure? ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2009, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-republicans-stand-stalwart-for-wilson/510235/85 "2009-09-17T02:02:42Z")
> [@Gfactor](#): > > Please refrain. No warning issued. How about if he doesn’t apologize to me and the board we make a resolution to file a formal expression of disapproval condemning his actions? ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2009, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-republicans-stand-stalwart-for-wilson/510235/86 "2009-09-17T02:29:05Z")
Just so it’s clear, yesterday the House passed a Disapproval resolution, not a formal censure. That may come later. Assuming I understand things correctly. Analysis of vote tally: [http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2009/09/house-passes-wilson-disapproval-motion.php?ref=fpblg](http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2009/09/house-passes-wilson-disapproval-motion.php?ref=fpblg) Vote tally: [http://clerk.house.gov/evs/2009/roll699.xml](http://clerk.house.gov/evs/2009/roll699.xml) None of this would have happened if Joe Wilson had a stronger sense of manhood. If you lose your cool, you should apologize. You shouldn’t be so naive as to believe that any of your wrongdoing does harm to one and only one party. As Bob Inglis (R-SC) put it: “[Joe Wilson analogy: I speed, lose control of my car and hit your car. Part 1: I fix your car. Part 2: I pay my speeding ticket. Case closed.](http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2009/09/gop-rep-bob-inglis-joe-wilson-should-apologize-to-the-house.php)” OBTW: It’s not a waste of time. Arguably more harm was done to the House than to the President. There are codes of conduct that are prerequisite for legislative bodies to function. Even the Brits disallow certain words during Parliamentary questioning: “Liar” is one of them, “Coward” is another. The idea is that certain phrases simply destroy even the barest semblance of debate or at least presentation of position. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2009, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-republicans-stand-stalwart-for-wilson/510235/87 "2009-09-17T02:37:15Z")
Ok here’s the language. There is indeed no censure in yesterday’s resolution. > [@House Resolution 744](#): > > Whereas on September 9, 2009, during the joint session of Congress convened pursuant to House Concurrent Resolution 179, the President of the United States, speaking at the invitation… (Engrossed as Agreed to or Passed by House) > > HRES 744 EH > > H. Res. 744 > > In the House of Representatives, U. S., > > September 15, 2009. > > Whereas on September 9, 2009, during the joint session of Congress convened pursuant to House Concurrent Resolution 179, the President of the United States, speaking at the invitation of the House and Senate, had his remarks interrupted by the Representative from South Carolina, Mr. Wilson; and > > Whereas the conduct of the Representative from South Carolina was a breach of decorum and degraded the proceedings of the joint session, to the discredit of the House: Now, therefore, be it > > ``` > Resolved, That the House of Representatives disapproves of the behavior of the Representative from South Carolina, Mr. Wilson, during the joint session of Congress held on September 9, 2009. > > ``` > > Attest: > > Clerk. There’s nothing in there explicitly about calling the President a liar, only about rudely interrupting the President during joint session. Time and place, etc. etc. [http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c111:H.RES.744:](http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c111:H.RES.744:) **Mr. Moto** draws another false and tenuous equivalence. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2009, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-republicans-stand-stalwart-for-wilson/510235/88 "2009-09-17T02:44:16Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > How about if he doesn’t apologize to me and the board we make a resolution to file a formal expression of disapproval condemning his actions? Well, you have to admit that it was a Frank Expression of Personal Opinion. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2009, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-republicans-stand-stalwart-for-wilson/510235/89 "2009-09-17T03:11:22Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > There’s nothing in there explicitly about calling the President a liar, only about rudely interrupting the President during joint session. Time and place, etc. etc. [http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c111:H.RES.744:](http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c111:H.RES.744:) > **Mr. Moto** draws another false and tenuous equivalence. Check out Paragraph 2 - that makes mention to a breech of decorum. The decorum rules I linked to above spell out the language not permitted - that would include calling the President a liar. So yes, there it is. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2009, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-republicans-stand-stalwart-for-wilson/510235/90 "2009-09-17T03:17:09Z")
> [@An\_Arky](#): > > I don’t like what Wilson did, but the Dems should back off. The last thing they need is to make him a martyr. He became a martyr when Biden and Pelosi cast him the evil eye. What disapproval does is continue making him a laughingstock. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2009, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-republicans-stand-stalwart-for-wilson/510235/91 "2009-09-17T03:27:20Z")
> [@Mr.Moto](#): > > I’m sorry - I thought we were talking about calling the President a liar from the House floor, which [seems to be against the rules whether he is in the chamber or not.](http://www.rules.house.gov/archives/house_comm_dec.htm) So while one got way more publicity than the other, as the rules go they seem to be just about the same offense. That’s a decent qualification in the previous post, but no – we’re not talking about the same offense (though there’s some overlap) and Moto’s presentation of these two cases doesn’t elucidate their similarities and differences particularly well. At any rate, if Wilson at any point decides to man up in the well of the House–as Stark did after an admonishment by Nancy Pelosi-- I think this whole thing should just be a matter between Wilson and his constituents. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2009, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-republicans-stand-stalwart-for-wilson/510235/92 "2009-09-17T05:19:43Z")
> [@Mr.Moto](#): > > Did Stark break a rule by calling Bush a liar in the House? Please consult my helpful link above. > > And it is you who are asserting that I implied an equivalence. I never did anything of the sort - I just noted a recent precedent, and an oddly parallel one. I consulted your helpful link, like you said, but I can’t find a reference to Stark having called Bush a liar in [this link.](http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2007/10/24/MN8LSUUMF.DTL&type=printable) near as I can make out, what he said was > [@](#): > > “You don’t have money to fund the war or children, but you’re going to spend it to blow up innocent people if we can get enough kids to grow old enough for you to send to Iraq to get their heads blown off for the president’s amusement,” he said. I mean, congratulations on finding out **Der Trihs** ’s secret identity and everything, but he didn’t even use the word “liar” in that sentence. Was it maybe in an earlier article that he is quoted as having called Bush a liar from the House floor? Can you find it for me? Please? Pretty please, with _tu quoque_ on top? “_tu quoque_” is Latin for “sugar”, right? ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2009, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-republicans-stand-stalwart-for-wilson/510235/93 "2009-09-17T05:39:05Z")
> [@Mr.Moto](#): > > Check out Paragraph 2 - that makes mention to a breech of decorum. The decorum rules I linked to above spell out the language not permitted - that would include calling the President a liar. So yes, there it is. Oh, horsepucky. The breach of decorum was yelling at the President in the middle of his speech. Here, let me quote the relevant bit: “Whereas the **conduct** of the Representative from South Carolina was a breach of decorum and degraded the proceedings of the joint session”… Don’t you ever get tired of this disingenuous nonsense? ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2009, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-republicans-stand-stalwart-for-wilson/510235/94 "2009-09-17T12:47:46Z")
> [@Mr.Moto](#): > > What is the penalty for speaking out of turn? Is it censure? I don’t know. I also don’t know what that has to do with the point you’ve been trying, and failing, to make. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2009, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-republicans-stand-stalwart-for-wilson/510235/95 "2009-09-17T13:45:18Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > Was it maybe in an earlier article that he is quoted as having called Bush a liar from the House floor? Can you find it for me? Please? [Okay.](http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/10/19/starks-remarks-set-off-gop-lawmakers/) > [@](#): > > On the House floor on Thursday, Mr. Stark attacked Mr. Bush in statements that at some points were more angry than coherent. > > ``` > “I’m just amazed that the Republicans are worried that we can’t pay for insuring an additional 10 million children,” he said. “They sure don’t care about finding $200 billion to fight the illegal war in Iraq. Where are you going to get that money? You are going to tell us lies like you’re telling us today? Is that how you’re going to fund the war? You don’t have money to fund the war or children, but you’re going to spend it to blow up innocent people if we can get enough kids to grow old enough for you to send to Iraq to get their heads blown off for the President’s amusement.” > > ``` > > At another point, he referenced, Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger. “In his previous job as an actor, our governor used to play make-believe and blow things up. Well, the Republicans in Congress are playing make-believe today with children’s lives. They claim that they can’t afford health care. They say the bill will socialize medicine.” > > He added later: “The truth is the CHIP program allows states to cover children primarily through private health care plans. **But President Bush’s statements about children’s health shouldn’t be taken any more seriously than his lies about the war in Iraq.** The truth is that Bush just likes to blow things up in Iraq, in the United States, and in Congress. I urge my colleagues to vote to override his veto.” ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2009, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-republicans-stand-stalwart-for-wilson/510235/96 "2009-09-17T13:57:53Z")
You really can see no diference between a man including (true but) offensive language toward the Presdent while making a speech, having been granted the floor, in a ‘normal’ House session, and someone jumping up to interrupt the President during his address to a Joint Session of Congress with a (false) accusation that he is lying? A question: how do you feel about the 1993 ruling by the Commandant of the Marine Corps that Marines need not salute President Clinton because he was not a veteran? ---
**Author:** ![DoctorJ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doctorj/32/2904_2.png) [@DoctorJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DoctorJ)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2009, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-republicans-stand-stalwart-for-wilson/510235/97 "2009-09-17T14:11:34Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > I have no shot. It was rhetorical. Why would Obama lie when he said Wilson offered him a prompt and unreserved apology? Wilson did issue what appeared to be a prompt and unreserved apology. He didn’t even wait until the following day–it was within a couple of hours of the speech. But apologizing doesn’t end when you mouth some apologetic-sounding words. I said that night on these very boards that if Wilson had shown genuine contrition–letting his apology stand, taking his lumps, shutting up and letting the furor die down–that Congress and everybody else should have let it drop. But if he tried to make himself into a hero over it and use it in fundraising pitches, he would be effectively taking back his apology, and Congress should let him have it with both barrels. Needless to say, he was on Hannity and YouTube within 24 hours nailing himself to the cross. I don’t like the idea of furthering his martyrdom with a censure, but I also don’t like the idea of encouraging future jackassery by back-bencher wingnuts who want a day in the sun. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2009, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-republicans-stand-stalwart-for-wilson/510235/98 "2009-09-17T14:43:45Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > A question: how do you feel about the 1993 ruling by the Commandant of the Marine Corps that Marines need not salute President Clinton because he was not a veteran? This appears to be an urban legend - certainly [Snopes](http://www.snopes.com/politics/clintons/salute.asp) thinks it is. And the entirety of my active duty was during the Clinton presidency, and we were always instructed to salute him. I’m sure you would be happy to either give me more information supporting your charge or immediately dropping it, given this. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2009, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-republicans-stand-stalwart-for-wilson/510235/99 "2009-09-17T14:45:09Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > You really can see no diference between a man including (true but) offensive language toward the Presdent while making a speech, having been granted the floor, in a ‘normal’ House session, and someone jumping up to interrupt the President during his address to a Joint Session of Congress with a (false) accusation that he is lying? True or false is a matter of perspective, and in any situation like this one side thinks the statements are true and one side thinks they’re not. To the extent that your case on your personal belief that one statement was true and one was false, there’s not much point in what you say. In general, there’s a tendency of partisans - both IRL and on internet MB - to think their slurs against their opponents are just telling it like it is while their opponents’ slurs against them are unacceptable and uncivil lies that violate common decency. This is an obstacle to calm, respectful, and rational discourse. > [@DoctorJ](#): > > But apologizing doesn’t end when you mouth some apologetic-sounding words. I said that night on these very boards that if Wilson had shown genuine contrition–letting his apology stand, taking his lumps, shutting up and letting the furor die down–that Congress and everybody else should have let it drop. But if he tried to make himself into a hero over it and use it in fundraising pitches, he would be effectively taking back his apology, and Congress should let him have it with both barrels. I would spin that around. If Democrats generally would have accepted the apology in the spirit that Obama did and then Wilson would have carried on about it, I would agree with you. But if a guy apologizes, and his opponents continue to demand more pounds of flesh, and his election opponents crow about their success in using the incident for fundraising efforts, you can’t blame the guy for shifting into a more defiant mode. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2009, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-republicans-stand-stalwart-for-wilson/510235/100 "2009-09-17T15:43:40Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > There is absolutely nothing wrong with calling the President of the United States a liar while he is addressing a joint session of Congress. It’s not even to be disapproved. > > Wilson owed an apology not only to the President, but also to the House of Representatives, which he refused to do. > > I hope you’re ashamed of yourselves for putting party over propriety, and I hope the people who voted you into office are ashamed of you too. > > I can only assume that the 17 Democrats who voted “No” or “Present” did so because they are gleefully licking their chops at the future potential of calling a Republican President a liar from the floor of the House, and they should be ashamed as well. > > I’m disgusted. Concur completely. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-republicans-stand-stalwart-for-wilson/510235.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/house-republicans-stand-stalwart-for-wilson/510235.md?page=6)