# Household renovation planning, what comes first? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [May 28, 2023, 10:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/household-renovation-planning-what-comes-first/984694 "2023-05-28T10:33:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Tride](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tride/32/13907_2.png) [@Tride](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tride)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2023, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/household-renovation-planning-what-comes-first/984694/41 "2023-05-28T19:19:22Z")
Contractor here–back to your original questions, specifically budget. You ABSOLUTELY need a budget that includes at least a 15% contingency. Sounds like you will be financing this, so when hiring a designer you need to be crystal clear with them how much you can spend. I would expect a designer to be very conversant with local market conditions and costs. Ideally it would be design/build, or working with a contractor the designer has a relationship with. It is distressingly common for a client to give an architect or designer a budget and get a design back which prices out at double. Then they want more money to re-design. Ask for references and call them and talk about how the design priced out. Kraft-Made cabs are fine. I fyou want to put in a little simple elbow grease, knock-down/you assemble are fine too. ---
**Author:** ![bob\_2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bob_2/32/3341_2.png) [@bob\_2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bob_2)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2023, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/household-renovation-planning-what-comes-first/984694/42 "2023-05-28T22:43:53Z")
Whatever else you do, make sure that you have plenty of electrical outlets in the kitchen. When I did mine about 15 years ago I specified six pairs as well as the special one for the oven. The electrician thought I was nuts wanting so many, but I could do with at least one more pair. I guess that you may need some 240 as well as 110 supplies, but of course, we in England don’t have that problem. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2023, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/household-renovation-planning-what-comes-first/984694/43 "2023-05-29T02:53:20Z")
FWIW, our custom cabinets _look_ great, but the cabinetmaker cheaped out with Home Depot slides. We had all sorts of trouble with them until we got them replaced about a year ago with Knape & Vogt (KV) slides. > [@bob\_2](#): > > Whatever else you do, make sure that you have plenty of electrical outlets in the kitchen. Yes indeed. We ended up with seven double outlets in the kitchen - 3 on the short side, 4 on the other, for a total of 14 GFCI plugs. Best decision we made I think. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2023, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/household-renovation-planning-what-comes-first/984694/44 "2023-05-29T03:54:15Z")
There would not be a need for 240 in an American kitchen. It’s very rate in general to need anything other than 110. The only thing that occurs to me is an electric clothes dryer. I have a gas dryer so it uses 110. ---
**Author:** ![bob\_2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bob_2/32/3341_2.png) [@bob\_2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bob_2)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2023, 8:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/household-renovation-planning-what-comes-first/984694/45 "2023-05-29T08:00:12Z")
> [@hajario](#): > > There would not be a need for 240 in an American kitchen. If you had a 240 outlet, you could buy a European kettle that will boil water twice as fast as a low voltage one. ---
**Author:** ![scudsucker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scudsucker/32/14101_2.png) [@scudsucker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scudsucker)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2023, 11:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/household-renovation-planning-what-comes-first/984694/46 "2023-05-29T11:58:07Z")
In my experience, the answer to the question “Household renovation planning, what comes first?” is pregnancy. 2 kids, 2 renovations. Both times began when the putative recipient was _in utero_, but (inevitably) extended _post-partum_ to the extent, for the second, we spent a month or so in an AirBnB with a very recent newborn. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2023, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/household-renovation-planning-what-comes-first/984694/47 "2023-05-29T12:26:59Z")
> [@hajario](#): > > There would not be a need for 240 in an American kitchen. It’s very rate in general to need anything other than 110. The only thing that occurs to me is an electric clothes dryer. I have a gas dryer so it uses 110. Very common to have a 240 volt outlet for an electric oven/range. Going to be more common as gas stoves are under assault in the US. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2023, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/household-renovation-planning-what-comes-first/984694/48 "2023-05-29T13:34:09Z")
> [@bob\_2](#): > > If you had a 240 outlet, you could buy a European kettle that will boil water twice as fast as a low voltage one. The US 240v socket doesn’t match European plugs. (And you do need to follow US code on those things.) You could get an adaptor. But unless you really really want a faster electric kettle, it’s a lot of effort, and one of your outlets isn’t good for anything except European stuff. I am surprised by the people who dislike over-stove microwaves. I’m not tall (5’6") and i love mine. I guess if i had a lot more counter space, a dedicated exhaust fan and a separate countertop microwave would be fine. But i kinda like having all the "heating " things together (oven, range, MW from floor to ceiling, and toaster-oven to the side) and i find the microwave height convenient. ---
**Author:** ![DavidNRockies](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidnrockies/32/6279_2.png) [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2023, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/household-renovation-planning-what-comes-first/984694/49 "2023-05-29T13:55:38Z")
[threadjack] When the auto industry had/has to respond to increased Corporate Average Fuel Economy standards and/or safety and emissions standard, it doesn’t amount to a de facto car ban. It just makes cars safer, cleaner, and more economical. Similarly, there’s really no gas stove ban in the works: > **[FACT FOCUS: Biden administration isn't banning gas stoves](https://apnews.com/article/biden-united-states-government-us-consumer-product-safety-commission-ap-fact-check-texas-2003dcf8d0bee8ddf45080186b2e0c7b)** > > The Biden administration has come under fire this week due to overcooked fears that it is planning a nationwide ban on gas stoves. The claim was sparked by comments from a Consumer Product Safety Commission official published Monday that “any option... > **[What the right’s gas stove freakout was really about](https://www.politico.com/news/2023/01/14/joe-biden-gas-stoves-00077944)** > > The Biden administration isn't proposing to outlaw the fossil-fuel-powered appliances. But they're at the center of a growing nationwide debate about city and state gas bans — and the latest Washington culture war. But as induction cooktops become more popular, a 240V outlet may make increasingly more sense. [/threadjack] ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2023, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/household-renovation-planning-what-comes-first/984694/50 "2023-05-29T13:57:17Z")
**Modding** : But with that, no more arguing about Gas Stoves Bans or no Bans. **If you want to continue, start a new thread.** Seriously, no more. ---
**Author:** ![DavidNRockies](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidnrockies/32/6279_2.png) [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2023, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/household-renovation-planning-what-comes-first/984694/51 "2023-05-29T14:03:46Z")
Another kitchen electrical consideration: > [@Kitchen remodeling: give us your words of wisdom](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kitchen-remodeling-give-us-your-words-of-wisdom/978862/68): > > Just another thought. In my last house, I put together a woodworking shop. I have a fair number of power tools, and it wouldn’t be unusual to have two fairly high current (amperage) tools running at the same time – say: a power tool and a dust collector. What I had done is something that – if it seems relevant to you – you could do in your kitchen: I put in a few quadplex electrical outlets: [[image] ](https://inspectapedia.com/electric/Electrical_Receptacle_0322_DJFcs.jpg) But the thing that was unique about how I had … And the alternative approach to the same basic issue from @Railer13 🙄 > [@Kitchen remodeling: give us your words of wisdom](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kitchen-remodeling-give-us-your-words-of-wisdom/978862/69): > > When we remodeled our kitchen, I ran circuit one on two walls, and circuit two on the other two walls. The countertops are on opposite walls, so the toaster oven lives on one countertop, and the coffee maker lives on the other countertop. I used 12 gauge wire and put in 20 amp circuit breakers. I don’t believe we’ve ever tripped a breaker. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2023, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/household-renovation-planning-what-comes-first/984694/52 "2023-05-29T14:57:47Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > I’m not tall (5’6") and i love mine. You’re not short, either. My last doctor’s office statement says I’m 5’ 1 1/4"; which if accurate means I’ve lost a quarter inch, and should start rounding down instead of up when I’m not being pendantic. But it is true that I’ve got more counter space than most people; at least, when a lot of it’s not being taken up with transplant starts on heat mats. ---
**Author:** ![chela](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chela/32/21582_2.png) [@chela](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chela)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2023, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/household-renovation-planning-what-comes-first/984694/53 "2023-05-29T15:11:43Z")
My step saver kitchen. It used to be brown cabs and beige Formica countertops and a roll of beige vinyl on the floor. We reduced the counter depth on the left and used upper cabs as lowers. Removed the DW and that vacancy next to the sink houses a bar stool or the dehumidifier. Two people can work in this kitchen now but elbows in and with efficiency of movement. Concrete floor has a blue metallic epoxy coating. [![](https://i.ibb.co/Y0H5gpq/094-E8-CF9-D1-B6-45-DE-A746-399-FAC2784-CD.jpg) ](https://i.ibb.co/Y0H5gpq/094-E8-CF9-D1-B6-45-DE-A746-399-FAC2784-CD.jpg) Opposite end of kitchen. A bit more room. This was taken just after the floor was poured and set. [![](https://i.ibb.co/6PBHVpZ/C860-F69-B-19-FF-4-C32-8-F8-C-59557-DD34304.jpg) ](https://i.ibb.co/6PBHVpZ/C860-F69-B-19-FF-4-C32-8-F8-C-59557-DD34304.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2023, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/household-renovation-planning-what-comes-first/984694/54 "2023-05-29T15:46:35Z")
> [@DavidNRockies](#): > > But as induction cooktops become more popular, a 240V outlet may make increasingly more sense. Yes, whether or not banning gas is a good idea, there are at least a few jurisdictions that have already done it for new construction, and a lot of people really like induction cooking for reasons that have nothing to do with any issues around gas. If you think you might ever want induction cooking, putting in some wires that can handle it while the walls are open is probably a wise choice. It’s SO much cheaper to run wires in the middle of a project than to add them later. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2023, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/household-renovation-planning-what-comes-first/984694/55 "2023-05-29T15:51:08Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > > [@puzzlegal](#): > > > > I’m not tall (5’6") and i love mine. > > You’re not short, either. > > My last doctor’s office statement says I’m 5’ 1 1/4" I’m not short. I thought a discussion of “are over stove microwaves too high” would be helped with some actual heights. It’s hard to imagine what a thing at such and so height will feel like. At 5’6", with short-ish arms for my height, i love my over-stove microwave. You aren’t the only person I’ve heard complain they are hard to reach, and it’s probably helpful for others who find them difficult to give their height. (I do need to use a stool to reach most of the stuff in the cabinet above the microwave. It’s still a useful cabinet.) ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2023, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/household-renovation-planning-what-comes-first/984694/56 "2023-05-29T16:07:56Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > (I do need to use a stool to reach most of the stuff in the cabinet above the microwave. It’s still a useful cabinet.) I’m 6’2+ my Wife is 5’1+. My Wife will use a stool for top shelves… If I’m not around. It’s arranged so the things my Wife usually uses are not on the top shelf of cabinets. That’s just the way it works. Things find a home. For myself, our standard height counter tops are a little low. Gives my back grief when I’m doing a lot of chopping (I do the majority of the cooking). For my Wife I suspect they are a bit higher than she would prefer. Low counter tops can be a problem for tall people. Just sayin… So, I guess, a happy compromise. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2023, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/household-renovation-planning-what-comes-first/984694/57 "2023-05-29T16:17:15Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > i love my over-stove microwave. You aren’t the only person I’ve heard complain they are hard to reach To be fair, I’ve never used one. But I find the cabinet over the stove awkward to get into, especially if there are hot pots on the stove; and I had all my upper cabinets hung a little lower than usual. > [@enipla](#): > > I’m 6’2+ my Wife is 5’1+. My Wife will use a stool for top shelves… If I’m not around. It’s arranged so the things my Wife usually uses are not on the top shelf of cabinets. That’s just the way it works. Things find a home. > > For myself, our standard height counter tops are a little low. Gives my back grief when I’m doing a lot of chopping (I do the majority of the cooking). For my Wife I suspect they are a bit higher than she would prefer If there’s room in the kitchen for two work surfaces, and if you do much cooking, you might be surprised how much easier one surface at her correct height and one at yours would make the work. When you’re standing at the counter/table/whatever, you should be able to put your hands flat on the table while your arms and back are straight. But not all kitchens work with two separate work surfaces, and not all people find the difference worth it. ---
**Author:** ![carrps](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carrps/32/2957_2.png) [@carrps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carrps)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2023, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/household-renovation-planning-what-comes-first/984694/58 "2023-05-29T16:30:56Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > I am surprised by the people who dislike over-stove microwaves. I’m not tall (5’6") and i love mine Well, I’m 5’3" and that couple of inches makes a difference. As someone upthread (@enipla ?) remarked, I was always on the verge of spilling hot liquids all over myself when we had our microwave over the stove. And as I age, getting on a stepladder to get something out of the microwave is a no-go. I’m glad ours is now at least a foot lower. ETA: I should have finished the thread before commenting! ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2023, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/household-renovation-planning-what-comes-first/984694/59 "2023-05-29T16:37:14Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > I am surprised by the people who dislike over-stove microwaves I think there is an issue with inadequate venting that way, compared with a range hood. But, obviously, depends on the kitchen. Our range hood goes up to 900 cfm. Google tells me most otr microwaves are 200 to 400 cfm. ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2023, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/household-renovation-planning-what-comes-first/984694/60 "2023-05-29T16:41:54Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > But not all kitchens work with two separate work surfaces, and not all people find the difference worth it. Yeah, that’s us. It’s just not really worth it. And depending on the meal, we will often share the same work surface. I could always just get a taller cutting board for chopping. Or build a base under it. You have to weigh the pros vs. the cons. Dammit, now you gave me an idea… They make cutting boards with legs. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/household-renovation-planning-what-comes-first/984694.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/household-renovation-planning-what-comes-first/984694.md?page=4)