# How about charging a toll at the border to pay for a fence? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [January 5, 2019, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-about-charging-a-toll-at-the-border-to-pay-for-a-fence/827262 "2019-01-05T20:35:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![guizot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guizot/32/3636_2.png) [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2019, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-about-charging-a-toll-at-the-border-to-pay-for-a-fence/827262/61 "2019-01-07T17:12:43Z")
> [@Ancient\_Erudite](#): > > Bob how many people here in the USA have drug problems because of Mexico? > > You tell me. I’d imagine well over 100,000. > > The FBI data is needed, but I found data on one state Texas. California likely has more arrests. higher This is problem in many states. But you wanted a number. I grossly underestimated it. > > According to DHS status indicators, over **276,000 criminal aliens** have been booked into local Texas jails between June 1, 2011 and December 31, 2018, of which over 186,000 were classified as illegal aliens by DHS. Keep in mind many crimes do not have arrests so the amount of the victims is much higher. > > Over the course of their entire Texas criminal careers, these 186,000 illegal aliens were charged with more than 461,000 criminal offenses which included arrests for 1,017 homicide charges; 52,128 assault charges; 14,826 burglary charges; 59,513 drug charges; 690 kidnapping charges; 28,671 theft charges; 40,873 obstructing police charges; 3,484 robbery charges; 5,560 sexual assault charges; 3,393 sexual offense charges; and 6,692 weapon charges. DPS criminal history records reflect those criminal charges have thus far resulted in over 213,000 convictions including 465 homicide convictions; 22,606 assault convictions; 7,683 burglary convictions; 30,906 drug convictions; 282 kidnapping convictions; 13,552 theft convictions; 20,629 obstructing police convictions; 1,929 robbery convictions; 2,935 sexual assault convictions; 1,829 sexual offense convictions; and 2,999 weapon convictions. > > [https://www.dps.texas.gov/administration/crime\_records/pages/txcriminalalienstatistics.htm](https://www.dps.texas.gov/administration/crime_records/pages/txcriminalalienstatistics.htm) > > Now, don’t you think better boarder security is needed to protect the USA victims? Just imagine if Michael Moore pointed his games on the victims and made a movie out of it. Eyes would fall out of the sockets. As that report itself says, it doesn’t refer to _ **actual rates** _. Of course you have numbers like that, in such a huge population as that of Texas, over the course of SIX YEARS. [The Cato Institute has studied this data](https://www.cato.org/publications/immigration-research-policy-brief/criminal-immigrants-texas-illegal-immigrant), and found that: > [@Cato Institute](#): > > The vast majority of research finds that immigrants do not increase local crime rates and that they are less likely to cause crime and less likely to be incarcerated than their native-born peers. There is less research on illegal immigrant criminality, but what research there is shows that illegal immigrants have lower incarceration rates nationwide and in the state of Texas relative to native-born Americans, although they have the same rates of re-arrest in Los Angeles County. Consistent with those findings, immigration enforcement programs targeting illegal immigrant criminals have no effect on local crime rates, which indicates that they are about as crime prone as other residents. Don’t fall for Trump’s propaganda. Also–as the DEA reported two months ago–most drugs are smuggled in through POEs by people who have legal entry, (as well as aerially with drones, and through tunnels), so building a new wall out in the middle of nowhere isn’t going to make such a big difference in that anyway. I’m sure there are some Trump buttlickers out there who would get the contracts for this boondoggle, and get rich off of the money which Trump promised–OVER AND OVER AGAIN–would come from Mexico, but really is coming out of our pockets. Jesus Christ–if you believe this scammer, then my friend the Nigerian prince has a message just for you. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2019, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-about-charging-a-toll-at-the-border-to-pay-for-a-fence/827262/62 "2019-01-07T17:27:13Z")
> [@Ancient\_Erudite](#): > > Now, don’t you think better boarder security is needed to protect the USA victims? Oh, border security. That’s fine. I thought you wanted Trump’s stupid wall. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2019, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-about-charging-a-toll-at-the-border-to-pay-for-a-fence/827262/63 "2019-01-07T17:29:36Z")
> [@Ancient\_Erudite](#): > > Bob how many people here in the USA have drug problems because of Mexico? > > You tell me. I’d imagine well over 100,000. > > The FBI data is needed, but I found data on one state Texas. California likely has more arrests. higher This is problem in many states. But you wanted a number. I grossly underestimated it. > > According to DHS status indicators, over **276,000 criminal aliens** have been booked into local Texas jails between June 1, 2011 and December 31, 2018, of which over 186,000 were classified as illegal aliens by DHS. Keep in mind many crimes do not have arrests so the amount of the victims is much higher. > > Over the course of their entire Texas criminal careers, these 186,000 illegal aliens were charged with more than 461,000 criminal offenses which included arrests for 1,017 homicide charges; 52,128 assault charges; 14,826 burglary charges; 59,513 drug charges; 690 kidnapping charges; 28,671 theft charges; 40,873 obstructing police charges; 3,484 robbery charges; 5,560 sexual assault charges; 3,393 sexual offense charges; and 6,692 weapon charges. DPS criminal history records reflect those criminal charges have thus far resulted in over 213,000 convictions including 465 homicide convictions; 22,606 assault convictions; 7,683 burglary convictions; 30,906 drug convictions; 282 kidnapping convictions; 13,552 theft convictions; 20,629 obstructing police convictions; 1,929 robbery convictions; 2,935 sexual assault convictions; 1,829 sexual offense convictions; and 2,999 weapon convictions. > > [https://www.dps.texas.gov/administration/crime\_records/pages/txcriminalalienstatistics.htm](https://www.dps.texas.gov/administration/crime_records/pages/txcriminalalienstatistics.htm) > > Now, don’t you think better boarder security is needed to protect the USA victims? Just imagine if Michael Moore pointed his games on the victims and made a movie out of it. Eyes would fall out of the sockets. What are the overall crime stats for that period? ---
**Author:** ![Anny\_Middon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/bc79bd/32.png) [@Anny\_Middon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anny_Middon)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2019, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-about-charging-a-toll-at-the-border-to-pay-for-a-fence/827262/64 "2019-01-07T22:02:02Z")
> [@guizot](#): > > Also–as the DEA reported two months ago–most drugs are smuggled in through POEs by people who have legal entry, (as well as aerially with drones, and through tunnels), so building a new wall out in the middle of nowhere isn’t going to make such a big difference in that anyway. Even if the wall made a difference in the amount of drugs smuggled in from Mexico, that doesn’t mean that the number of addicts in the US would decline by much. It’s not like there are a lot of addicts out there who will go, “When my drugs cost me $x per day, I could handle it. But now that they’re $2x, I guess I’ll just quit.” I figure that 2 things will happen. First, some crime will go up as addicts do whatever they have to in order to pay the higher amount that lessened supply creates. Second, over time other ways of supplying drugs will arise. If we cut off half the supply of fentanyl coming in from Mexico, how long will it be before there are a bunch of fentanyl labs in the US? Come to think of it, there’s probably a third consequence – the number of deaths related to drug addiction will increase. ---
**Author:** ![Fiddle\_Peghead](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiddle_peghead/32/3506_2.png) [@Fiddle\_Peghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiddle_Peghead)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2019, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-about-charging-a-toll-at-the-border-to-pay-for-a-fence/827262/65 "2019-01-08T01:50:20Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > There are very remote areas where fencing isn’t practical. Electronic surveillance can be used instead. If it is so remote, is anyone trying to cross there at all? Would the cost of this be worth it? ---
**Author:** ![Fiddle\_Peghead](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiddle_peghead/32/3506_2.png) [@Fiddle\_Peghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiddle_Peghead)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2019, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-about-charging-a-toll-at-the-border-to-pay-for-a-fence/827262/66 "2019-01-08T01:56:44Z")
This seems to me to be another of a solution in search of a problem, like the rest of the stupid wall. ---
**Author:** ![guizot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guizot/32/3636_2.png) [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2019, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-about-charging-a-toll-at-the-border-to-pay-for-a-fence/827262/67 "2019-01-08T05:25:07Z")
> [@Anny\_Middon](#): > > I guess I’ll just If we cut off half the supply of fentanyl coming in from Mexico, how long will it be before there are a bunch of fentanyl labs in the US? I think just as much fentanyl has been coming from China already anyway–at least the really potent such–because it’s so much smaller, and easier to send in small packages through regular post. ---
**Author:** ![Ancient\_Erudite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/eb9ed0/32.png) [@Ancient\_Erudite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ancient_Erudite)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2019, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-about-charging-a-toll-at-the-border-to-pay-for-a-fence/827262/68 "2019-01-09T15:29:13Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > What are the overall crime stats for that period? I only cited Texas. Keep in mind these are charges, and many crimes that happen that go unrecorded. If a President’s primary duty is to protect the citizens, don’t you think this problem? > [@](#): > > According to DHS status indicators, over 276,000 criminal aliens have been booked into local Texas jails between June 1, 2011 and December 31, 2018, of which over 186,000 were classified as illegal aliens by DHS. Keep in mind many crimes do not have arrests so the amount of the victims is much higher. > > Over the course of their entire Texas criminal careers, these 186,000 illegal aliens were charged with more than 461,000 criminal offenses which included arrests for 1,017 homicide charges; 52,128 assault charges; 14,826 burglary charges; 59,513 drug charges; 690 kidnapping charges; 28,671 theft charges; 40,873 obstructing police charges; 3,484 robbery charges; 5,560 sexual assault charges; 3,393 sexual offense charges; and 6,692 weapon charges. DPS criminal history records reflect those criminal charges have thus far resulted in over 213,000 convictions including 465 homicide convictions; 22,606 assault convictions; 7,683 burglary convictions; 30,906 drug convictions; 282 kidnapping convictions; 13,552 theft convictions; 20,629 obstructing police convictions; 1,929 robbery convictions; 2,935 sexual assault convictions; 1,829 sexual offense convictions; and 2,999 weapon convictions. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2019, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-about-charging-a-toll-at-the-border-to-pay-for-a-fence/827262/69 "2019-01-09T15:38:05Z")
Where is that quote from? ---
**Author:** ![Ancient\_Erudite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/eb9ed0/32.png) [@Ancient\_Erudite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ancient_Erudite)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2019, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-about-charging-a-toll-at-the-border-to-pay-for-a-fence/827262/70 "2019-01-09T15:38:21Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > Oh, border security. That’s fine. I thought you wanted Trump’s stupid wall. I want a border security, which in some areas includes a wall. Obama, Schumer and Clinton voted for the Secure Fence Act of 2006, which authorized building a fence along about 700 miles of the border between the United States and Mexico. It boils down to Democrats playing politics. If they were indeed for it, why not now? Answer best given, Democrats, don’t want to provide Trump with a victory even if we know the victims due to lack of border security number in the hundreds of thousands. ---
**Author:** ![Ancient\_Erudite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/eb9ed0/32.png) [@Ancient\_Erudite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ancient_Erudite)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2019, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-about-charging-a-toll-at-the-border-to-pay-for-a-fence/827262/71 "2019-01-09T15:39:27Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Where is that quote from? [https://www.dps.texas.gov/administration/crime\_records/pages/txcriminalalienstatistics.htm](https://www.dps.texas.gov/administration/crime_records/pages/txcriminalalienstatistics.htm) As I stated before, this is just data from one state. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2019, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-about-charging-a-toll-at-the-border-to-pay-for-a-fence/827262/72 "2019-01-09T15:45:05Z")
> [@Ancient\_Erudite](#): > > I only cited Texas. Keep in mind these are charges, and many crimes that happen that go unrecorded. If a President’s primary duty is to protect the citizens, don’t you think this problem? What matters is the crime rate of citizens compared to illegal immigrants. Numerous studies show that illegal immigrants have a _lower_ crime rate than citizens. ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2019, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-about-charging-a-toll-at-the-border-to-pay-for-a-fence/827262/73 "2019-01-09T15:45:44Z")
> [@Ancient\_Erudite](#): > > … don’t you think this problem? Not problem. Not problem worthy of prison wall, anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2019, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-about-charging-a-toll-at-the-border-to-pay-for-a-fence/827262/74 "2019-01-09T15:46:30Z")
> [@Ancient\_Erudite](#): > > [https://www.dps.texas.gov/administration/crime\_records/pages/txcriminalalienstatistics.htm](https://www.dps.texas.gov/administration/crime_records/pages/txcriminalalienstatistics.htm) > > As I stated before, this is just data from one state. The quote you gave does not match up with the cite you gave. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2019, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-about-charging-a-toll-at-the-border-to-pay-for-a-fence/827262/75 "2019-01-09T15:53:33Z")
> [@Ancient\_Erudite](#): > > I want a border security, which in some areas includes a wall. Did you want border security, or just _a_ border security? > [@](#): > > Obama, Schumer and Clinton voted for the Secure Fence Act of 2006, which authorized building a fence along about 700 miles of the border between the United States and Mexico. > > It boils down to Democrats playing politics. If they were indeed for it, why not now? Answer best given, Democrats, don’t want to provide Trump with a victory even if we know the victims due to lack of border security number in the hundreds of thousands. Or, it is because they feel that the Secure Fence act of 2006, and the 700 miles of fence and other expenditures on border security was sufficient, and that a 2000 mile boondoggle would cause more harm than good, even if free. Be like saying that you approved putting up a chain link fence on one side of your property, and so that means you must also be for a concrete culvert surrounding it. And we do not know that the “victims” number in the hundreds of thousands, please cite that claim. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2019, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-about-charging-a-toll-at-the-border-to-pay-for-a-fence/827262/76 "2019-01-09T15:56:04Z")
> [@Ancient\_Erudite](#): > > [https://www.dps.texas.gov/administration/crime\_records/pages/txcriminalalienstatistics.htm](https://www.dps.texas.gov/administration/crime_records/pages/txcriminalalienstatistics.htm) > > As I stated before, this is just data from one state. That is the original cite. Where did you get _your_ version with the added phrases “Keep in mind many crimes do not have arrests so the amount of the victims is much higher.” and “Over the course of their entire Texas criminal careers…” ? ---
**Author:** ![Ancient\_Erudite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/eb9ed0/32.png) [@Ancient\_Erudite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ancient_Erudite)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2019, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-about-charging-a-toll-at-the-border-to-pay-for-a-fence/827262/77 "2019-01-09T16:15:15Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > What matters is the crime rate of citizens compared to illegal immigrants. Numerous studies show that illegal immigrants have a _lower_ crime rate than citizens. Coach, simply stated USA citizens are victimized from illegal immigration some of which are brutal crimes. The amount of victims is a large number. Not 10 or 100. Try tens of thousands. Your attempt to say oh but illegal immigrants do it at a lower rate is irrelevant. Focus on what is happening. As for crime rates, they can show African Americans and Latinos commit more crimes on average than Caucasians or Asians. Do you buy that one? Or are you only being politically expedient while at the same time being okay with the problems that the USA citizens have due to the lack of border security from illegal immigration? ---
**Author:** ![Ancient\_Erudite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/eb9ed0/32.png) [@Ancient\_Erudite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ancient_Erudite)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2019, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-about-charging-a-toll-at-the-border-to-pay-for-a-fence/827262/78 "2019-01-09T16:19:25Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > That is the original cite. Where did you get _your_ version with the added phrases “Keep in mind many crimes do not have arrests so the amount of the victims is much higher.” and “Over the course of their entire Texas criminal careers…” ? That part was my opinion. I’m still getting familiar with the icons and quotes in the forum. I shall try to do better the next time. " Many crimes have no arrest. People get away with doing bad things all of the time. So the actual number of victims in Texas and the USA from illegal immigration is higher than the amount reported. " -Ancient Erudite’s thoughts. ---
**Author:** ![Ancient\_Erudite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/eb9ed0/32.png) [@Ancient\_Erudite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ancient_Erudite)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2019, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-about-charging-a-toll-at-the-border-to-pay-for-a-fence/827262/79 "2019-01-09T16:41:08Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Did you want border security, or just _a_ border security? > Or, it is because they feel that the Secure Fence act of 2006, and the 700 miles of fence and other expenditures on border security was sufficient, and that a 2000 mile boondoggle would cause more harm than good, even if free. > > Be like saying that you approved putting up a chain link fence on one side of your property, and so that means you must also be for a concrete culvert surrounding it. > > And we do not know that the “victims” number in the hundreds of thousands, please cite that claim. Did Trump say a 2,000-mile wall is needed? Source, please. It’s less than that. There is no need for a fence/wall in the mountain areas, and I think the President himself said we have a lot of natural barriers. At any rate, we see a group of people where were for it, reversing course. Obama, who was for the 2006 fence project had estimate 800 billion dollar stimulus package, with shovel ready projects that never happened, but Congress can’t give Trump 5.6 billion to for border security when the need is clear? ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2019, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-about-charging-a-toll-at-the-border-to-pay-for-a-fence/827262/80 "2019-01-09T16:45:34Z")
> [@Ancient\_Erudite](#): > > Did Trump say a 2,000-mile wall is needed? Source, please. It’s less than that. There is no need for a fence/wall in the mountain areas, and I think the President himself said we have a lot of natural barriers. > > At any rate, we see a group of people where were for it, reversing course. Obama, who was for the 2006 fence project had estimate 800 billion dollar stimulus package, with shovel ready projects that never happened, but Congress can’t give Trump 5.6 billion to for border security when the need is clear? Here ya go. > [@The five billion dollar wall](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/149): > > [GOP platform.](https://prod-cdn-static.gop.com/static/home/data/platform.pdf) (PDF) > pg 33 > > > [@](#): > > > > That is why we support building a wall along > > our southern border and protecting all ports of > > entry. The border wall must cover the entirety > > of the southern border and must be sufficient to > > stop both vehicular and pedestrian traffic. > > Along with numerous rantings at rallies. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-about-charging-a-toll-at-the-border-to-pay-for-a-fence/827262.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-about-charging-a-toll-at-the-border-to-pay-for-a-fence/827262.md?page=5)