How about "outing" gay Catholic Priests?

No, Polycarp is Episcopalian/Anglican, last I checked (“All the ritual of Catholicism, only half the guilt!”)

“Mortal” sin requires an exercise of the will, by the very definition in the Catechism. In the case of original sin, that’s a state into which the descendants of Adam are born by his exercise of the will.

And BG, a believer would tell you being right takes infinite precedence over sounding right, never mind sounding popular. You know how that line of thought goes. In any case of course it “doesn’t sound right” to the people unfamiliar with the specific technical meaning of “Lust” in the context of Church discourse on sin. You clearly have contrasted it with the colloquial everyday vernacular usage of “lust”. It has been explained that they are two different things, but it obviously is not satisfactory.

Maybe what they should have done is never switched from Latin :wink:

Ah, yes, the Church of England! Of which it has been said, “It is a very accommodating church, in that it interferes neither with a man’s politics nor with his religion.” :smiley:

I don’t feel anyone should be outed for any reason other then personaly doing something hypocritical. A priest being a member of the Catholic church is not enough for me.

For me it would come down to their own actions. If a preist gave a sermon on how gays will go to hell for their sins, I might be inclined tto point out, to him and the people he preached to, he said he thought he was in heaven when I was sucking his dick.

The two priests I know of that have gay sex have never to my knowledge brought up homosexuality in their sermons.

That’s actually not that far from the Church’s actual position. If bricker has sex with his wife (and I’m not saying that he does) in a way that expresses a disordered sexual desire, he is sinning along with the rest of us. Of course, the church is priveleges his marriage by acknowledging that he is not necessarily sinning when he has sex with his wife.

A disorder describes the person who has it. “Disordered” describes the desire. We’re discussing disordered sexual desire, but any normal human desire can be disordered. In IV.1863, the catechism refers to “a disordered affection for created goods,” for example.

Is there any particular reason you feel compelled to snipe at my faith, or is it just equal opportunity snipe season for you this month? No personal insult taken, or this would be the OP of a Pit thread rather than a question here. But I’ve noticed a great incapacity in myself to say anything on religion that does not provoke a less-than-irenic rejoinder from you, the past week or two, and while the cause may well be a change in my own style, I sense it lies elsewhere. I welcome clarification.

As a happily married (33 years) heterosexual man with a half-dozen openly gay friends (both men and women) I am not a fan of outing. Gays who out other gays, in my mind, perpetuate the stereotype of pissy little queens who’d as soon claw your eyes out as look at you.

The Roman church isn’t my favorite institution, either, but some of the people who are most dear to me are devout Catholics (Roman and Anglican) and every time somebody blames their religion for the crimes of a few men, it hurts them deeply. They’re tired of it and so am I. This is a church-state matter, and the bishops (including the supreme one in Rome) need to feel the weight of secular law on their necks, not the revenge postings of self-appointed morality police.

One of the things I loved about the Episcopal Church when I was a communicant was the ability of Episcopalians to laugh at themselves. Unfortunately, our inside jokes became well known to outsiders, and now everyone feels free to make jokes at our (now your) expense. Please don’t pretend that you haven’t made these same jokes yourself. Maybe **BrainGlutton ** is just trying to add some levity to the thread and doesn’t realize how ham-fisted the jokes sound to your ears. There are bigger worries for Episcopalians/Anglicans these days than accidental insensitivity.

Kal, your questions about sex outside of marriage: My own answer, and one I think I can put up with reasonable expectation of your respect, is: [i"What does your conscience tell you?"* By which I don’t mean something smarmy, a “any* decent* person would know the answer” sort of snark-bite, but rather, “Is this act, in this particular time and place, ethical?” I’m not absolutely wedded to Joseph Fletcher’s situation ethics, but he had some excellent points.

As an example of something that verges on the technical definition of adultery, I am e-acquainted with a Quaker couple, both professional artists by trade and (trained) counselors by avocation. As a couple, they were brought in on an intervention regarding a woman who had been brutalized, and I use the term advisedly, by her ex-husband. Prior to the last round of physical abuse that led to his arrest, he had committed such a massive campaign of emotional abuse that she was effectively disengaged from any capacity for intimacy and had an absolutely trashed self-image.

My friends the S’s of course saw this as something in need of healing, and brought her into their home. At Mrs S’s instigation, Mr S, a very gentle and compassionate man, did what was for all practical purposes wooing their houseguest, rebuilding her capacity for intimate contact and her image of herself by showing her that a gentle, caring man could find her attractive and worthy of his attention. I neither know nor care if there was sexual contact there; the nature of the intervention was itself a technical violation of marriage vows (“forsaking all others” etc.) but one done by half of a couple with mutual consent to accomplish long-range good for another. (She is, by the way, healing and, I’m given to understand, now dating while getting a divorce.)

It may have gone completely past people, but the idea that teenagers feel sexual desire is not in my mind an issue of lust – they are moving from childhood to adulthood, with the need to identify and sort what they need in a life partner. It would be absurd to do this as a pure intellectual exercise. Rather, the gift of God is that desire precedes maturity, providing opportunity to learn by trial and error.

The most common Greek word for sin literally means “falling short” – as in a spear or arrow not going all the way to the intended target. My personal views on casual sex are probably best expressed in those terms: it’s far short of what it could be, settling for gratification instead of fulfillment. At the same time, I do understand frustration. So the most I want to say ethically about that is that if it is not a situation in which there is a meeting of minds as to what it will not be, there’s a real problem.

But in general, I dislike the whole idea of pontificating about sexual ethics – tempting as it is to make those value judgments. I have my own life to live, my own goals to strive for (and inevitably fall short of), my own failings to repent and atone for. My sole conceivable interest in Miller and Sol’s sex life comprise these: (1) in the extremely unlikely event they want my advice on something; (2) the debt I owe them as fellow human beings to ensure that they realize that what neo-Pharisees decide to cobble up is not necessarily God’s own opinions on the matter; and (3) the demand on me, both in general as a citizen and Christian and the particular call placed on me personally, to stand in defense of their relationship, and those of other gay people, against those who would denigrate it.

Bottom line: I’m acutely aware of the lumberyard of planks and beams in my own eyes, and not particularly interested in ignoring it to check others’ eyes for dust particles. (And, as a childless man with a talent for communications, acutely aware of where that metaphor might be going, courtesy of Niven and Pournelle! ;))

It’s not so much the crimes (as bad as they are) as it is the church’s willingness to sweep it under the rug. Pretty hard to separate the church from the sin in that case. I agree they need to really feel the pressure from the real world. Asking humans to live non-human lives is cruel and unusual punishment.

This may very well be true, and the reason I’m asking him for clarity. I’ve developed a real hot button about anti-liberal-Episcopal comments over the past few years, because they’ve become so prevalent and so nasty in tone. If he’s simply having a little fun, no sweat – but it seems to me like he’s doing a particularly poor badchad impression, and it grates a bit. I’d just like to find out if I pushed one of his hot buttons, or what the story is.

I appreciate your response. I’m not sure how your church does it (aside from being tolerant of homosexuality, which is a good thing), but the catholic church makes it impossible to even follow their directive on the matter. It’s too vague. They don’t differentiate between lusting before or during marriage. *Your * interpretation (which appears to be in line with *your * view of hetero- and homosexuality) says to follow your conscience and do what’s right for the time and place. That varies widely between people, and most people would say it doesn’t even begin to be an accurate interpretation of the church’s intent. The church’s outward message is that sexuality will forever be a battle between good and evil (it’s not for most people). The reality is that many of their members (including guys in high places are doing what humans do, feeling guilty about it, and wringing their hands over it for their entire adult lifetimes.

Sexual appetites vary from person to person. What possible benefit could come from the church telling people how often to think about sex, who to do it with, how intensely to enjoy it, or whether or not it’s ok to get their kink on? If Joe and Mary Catholic decide that they want to get into group sex because they like it, what possible harm could it do to them or the church? If Millicent prefers sex once every couple months, and Wilbur prefers it twice a week, you’re damn straight he’s going to be lusting. And he’ll be “falling short.” (Ironically, the problem could have been avoided altogether if the church approved of the Test Run we secular folks are allowed to engage in.)

And that’s another thing…contrary to what the church might think, sex plays a big part in human marriage. To enter into a lifelong commitment with someone when you’re unsure of your partner’s sexual preferences (and theoretically, your partner doesn’t know either, because he or she hasn’t been allowed to explore the matter) is a recipe for disaster. And they can’t back out of the marriage over simple sexual incompatibility. They’re stuck with it for the next sixty years!

Why would people think this is a smart or enjoyable way to live their lives? And why does the church insist it’s any of their business?

Even if true, not a fact that would disqualify him from that office. On the other hand:

Such an outlook might be fatal to his chances.

I sort of mushed two issues together here. I didn’t mean to imply that sex with terrorized children is the same issue as Father John getting it on with the woman who bakes pies for the bazaar.

Beauty!

Fair enough. His last post illustrates the the lack of sensitivity I mentioned earlier. (By the way, I just noticed that my username has officially been changed. I’ll save the celebration for another board.) And I do want you to know that, although I’ve left the church for reasons having nothing to do with doctrine or politics, I’ll always hold the Aulde Church and the people of it in my heart. It is loving, liberal and intellectual Christians like you who allow godless heathens like me to live comfortably in the world today … or, at least, in our part of the world. It’s become pretty clear that there’s nothing “lite” about your faith, bad jokes notwithstanding. Soldier on, Polycarp! If you ever get Pitted for your beliefs, I’ll be right there beside you.

And now, back to our regularly scheduled thread …

The latter.

BTW, apologies to Polycarp as I do bear responsibility for the first Episcopalian joke in the thread, which precipitated BrainGlutton’s :o

You rang? Muahahahaha;).

It’s not like the wishy-washy biblical cherry pickers don’t have it coming any less than the fundamentalists do.

Regarding the OP, I say out those guys. Anytime you can point out the hypocrisy of the religious (which is pretty often), I say do it.

Hi Kalhoun:

How about a modern day Jesus, actively partaking in childhood sodomy?

No sweat, JR and Brain Glutton. I usually love them: “Wherever three or four Episcopalians are gathered, you’ll usually find a fifth.” “What do you mean, change? My sainted grandmother gave that lightbulb!” :stuck_out_tongue: Just that I’ve dealt with a few too many sniping posts lately, and my sense of humor was frayed. :slight_smile: