# How About This To "End" Welfare **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 11, 2018, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-about-this-to-end-welfare/808612 "2018-02-11T03:35:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2018, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-about-this-to-end-welfare/808612/21 "2018-02-11T22:46:05Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > How about this? (numbers just for illustration) > 30,000 max UBI > If you make 25,000, you get 5,000 to bring you up. If you only make 15,000, you get 15,000. Maybe for declared household add 15,000 for one(extra) adult and 10,000 per child. > There should be area adjustments. Even SF or NYC need cashiers, waitstaff, janitors, all those low wage jobs. Then this is a real work-incentive-killer. Suppose someone works a really laborious, menial job, and makes $27,000 a year. They’ll get $3,000 UBI to bring them up to $30,000. Why would they keep working that job when they could just quit on the spot and receive a $30,000 UBI check every year, for doing no work whatsoever? (Assuming I’m understanding your plan correctly.) ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2018, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-about-this-to-end-welfare/808612/22 "2018-02-11T22:55:37Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Then this is a real work-incentive-killer. > > Suppose someone works a really laborious, menial job, and makes $27,000 a year. They’ll get $3,000 UBI to bring them up to $30,000. > > Why would they keep working that job when they could just quit on the spot and receive a $30,000 UBI check every year, for doing no work whatsoever? > > (Assuming I’m understanding your plan correctly.) Some people will still work. Besides, with ever increasing automation, there will be more and more people for whom there is no job. Say a grocery store puts in self serve lanes and fires nine of their ten cashiers. The one remaining watches over the self serve. What do the other nine do? Is cashiering the level of job they can do or can any be retrained? What about the ones who don’t have the education or are too old? ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2018, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-about-this-to-end-welfare/808612/23 "2018-02-11T23:03:51Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > That’s why UBI is less interesting than “the government provides 10 heated square meters, a bed, a TV, healthcare and as much NutriPaste™ as you can put away ; every day, for the rest of your life - anything further you gotta work for”. > [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > This is probably more realistic I’d guess. > > Small studio apartments, basic food and health care. Not a bad life by any means, but probably something that only costs a few hundred a month to provide (other than the health care). That’s the safety net that I would have the most support for. Keeps you healthy, safe, and living with dignity, but no luxuries, and maybe you are left just a bit uncomfortable. Socialism is the best way to make sure that everyone is able to get the resources they need to survive, but capitalism is still far superior to allocate resources to those who are willing to work harder to fulfill their wants. > [@Chimera](#): > > The other side of that coin is what happens in bad times, or under oppressive governments. > > Look at North Korea. Basic apartments and really low levels of food provided, but you have to be party members, yada yada to get more. You also get drafted on a regular basis to harvest crops, work in the countryside, etc. And you’re expected to come up with “gifts” to the leaders or military on top of that, out of your misery pay. > > Given the “make these people work” requirements that Republicans want to put on welfare and basic assistance, do we really want the government to be able to mandate those sorts of forced labor things on the poor, on people receiving guaranteed basic income? Because I guarantee that would happen, even here. The idea is that in such a system, there isn’t enough work for everyone to do. If there isn’t enough work for everyone to do, then requiring people to find work to do in order to survive doesn’t really work out too well. In such a system, there also is no work to force people to do. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2018, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-about-this-to-end-welfare/808612/24 "2018-02-11T23:05:14Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > Is cashiering the level of job they can do or can any be retrained? What about the ones who don’t have the education or are too old? What education are you talking about? Cashiering doesn’t even require a high school diploma. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2018, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-about-this-to-end-welfare/808612/25 "2018-02-11T23:09:48Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > Medicare is not fucking welfare. Given that at least for the current generation they will get tons more out than they ever paid in, and our generation will get less than we paid in, it is certainly at the very least an unearned intergenerational transfer of wealth. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2018, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-about-this-to-end-welfare/808612/26 "2018-02-11T23:12:39Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Given that at least for the current generation they will get tons more out than they ever paid in, and our generation will get less than we paid in, it is certainly at the very least an unearned intergenerational transfer of wealth. Obviously, you know shit about Medicare. It’s no more welfare that any other insurance. And the co-pays without Medicare supplemental plans would bankrupt near anyone. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2018, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-about-this-to-end-welfare/808612/27 "2018-02-11T23:17:35Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > Obviously, you know shit about Medicare. Obviously, you know shit about Medicare. Most people receive more benefits than they pay in. > **[Sorry, Seniors, You Didn't Pay for (All of) That](https://www.forbes.com/sites/chrisconover/2012/12/03/aarp-lobbies-for-100000-plus-medicare-subsidy-for-seniors/#1a17fd806bdd)** > > The AARP—formerly known as the American Association of Retired Persons—is shamelessly (and irresponsibly) trying to convince seniors to run to their members of Congress to prevent cuts to Medicare. Why? Because “we worked hard for those benefits; we... ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2018, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-about-this-to-end-welfare/808612/28 "2018-02-11T23:24:25Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Obviously, you know shit about Medicare. Most people receive more benefits than they pay in. > > [Sorry, Seniors, You Didn't Pay for (All of) That](https://www.forbes.com/sites/chrisconover/2012/12/03/aarp-lobbies-for-100000-plus-medicare-subsidy-for-seniors/#1a17fd806bdd) I think I’ll ignore that link. He claims Medicare costs of 105 trillion yet the link shows some sort of debt clock. Current Medicare liabilities are under 28 billion with no indication of where the 105 trillion figure came from. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2018, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-about-this-to-end-welfare/808612/29 "2018-02-11T23:25:51Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > Obviously, you know shit about Medicare. > It’s no more welfare that any other insurance. And the co-pays without Medicare supplemental plans would bankrupt near anyone. it is heavily subsidized insurance, subsidized by workers out of our paychecks. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2018, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-about-this-to-end-welfare/808612/30 "2018-02-11T23:28:37Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > it is heavily subsidized insurance, subsidized by workers out of our paychecks. So is all insurance. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2018, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-about-this-to-end-welfare/808612/31 "2018-02-12T01:31:25Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > So is all insurance. All insurance is not subsidized out of our paychecks. Try again. And ignoring legit links just makes you look silly. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2018, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-about-this-to-end-welfare/808612/32 "2018-02-12T01:38:51Z")
> [@thatbpguy](#): > > This is certainly not a new idea and is being practiced in various ways around the world. The idea is to take all the money spent on every form of “welfare” and disperse it monthly to every person in the country. But this means food stamps, medicare, housing money… are all gone. You get your monthly allotment and that’s that. Now, to be sure it should be prorated for various reasons but it eliminates all fraud… You can be a drug addict, homeless, try and be achiever… and that check rolls in every month. > > I like the idea. Leaving out that which isn’t in any way welfare, I have two questions: 1. How much do you think each person would get, and 2. Why should Bill Gates, the Koch Brothers and Oprah Winfrey get this money? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2018, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-about-this-to-end-welfare/808612/33 "2018-02-12T01:41:59Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > There’s no way society is going to say “tough shit, guess you’ll just have to be homeless / starve” to all the people that waste their UBI on beer and smokes / Nikes / heroine. Along with all the corporations getting “incentives,” of course, that wind up going into stock options for board members and C\*Os. ---
**Author:** ![thatbpguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/258eb7/32.png) [@thatbpguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thatbpguy)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2018, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-about-this-to-end-welfare/808612/34 "2018-02-12T01:42:07Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > Sounds vaguely like universal basic income. > > In the US, we spend maybe ~2.5 trillion a year on various forms of welfare (if you include health care programs like medicaid, medicare, SCHIP, etc as welfare). > > That works out to about $8000 a year per person. > > It sounds like a bad idea, because when people are elderly they collect on average about 30k a year in social security and medicare. They collect very little the rest of their lives. You are just taking the money they collect in the final 15-20 years of life and dispersing it over the entire 80 years. If there’s a means test, it probably would be closer to $2,000 per person. I like the idea. We can still have private and religious charity. I’m just speaking about government payouts. ---
**Author:** ![thatbpguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/258eb7/32.png) [@thatbpguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thatbpguy)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2018, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-about-this-to-end-welfare/808612/35 "2018-02-12T01:44:02Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Leaving out that which isn’t in any way welfare, I have two questions: > > 1. How much do you think each person would get, and > 2. Why should Bill Gates, the Koch Brothers and Oprah Winfrey get this money? As I said, a means tests is applied. For those who have it in them to try and achieve, they will get little to none. For those who can’t, or won’t, they get their check and that’s it. That’s all the government will do for them. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2018, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-about-this-to-end-welfare/808612/36 "2018-02-12T01:49:08Z")
> [@thatbpguy](#): > > As I said, a means tests is applied. > > For those who have it in them to try and achieve, they will get little to none. For those who can’t, or won’t, they get their check and that’s it. That’s all the government will do for them. What are you going to do about the people who are too stupid to use their stipend for things like rent, groceries, electricity bill, etc? Let them starve / freeze as a warning to others? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2018, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-about-this-to-end-welfare/808612/37 "2018-02-12T01:49:45Z")
> [@thatbpguy](#): > > As I said, a means tests is applied. > > For those who have it in them to try and achieve, they will get little to none. For those who can’t, or won’t, they get their check and that’s it. That’s all the government will do for them. Again, do you have any understanding as to what is welfare and what isn’t? ---
**Author:** ![thatbpguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/258eb7/32.png) [@thatbpguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thatbpguy)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2018, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-about-this-to-end-welfare/808612/38 "2018-02-12T01:51:02Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > What are you going to do about the people who are too stupid to use their stipend for things like rent, groceries, electricity bill, etc? Let them starve / freeze as a warning to others? What I say to them is an old Russian trusted saying- That’s just tough shitsky. ---
**Author:** ![thatbpguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/258eb7/32.png) [@thatbpguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thatbpguy)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2018, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-about-this-to-end-welfare/808612/39 "2018-02-12T01:53:05Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Again, do you have any understanding as to what is welfare and what isn’t? Oh I think I do. I used to work for the feds with homeless and incarcerated vets. After about 6 years we were all laid off during the Clinton Administration. I have a daughter dying with a disease and she gets Medicare… Yes, I have a clue. Maybe stop shitting on me and read the forum rules. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2018, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-about-this-to-end-welfare/808612/40 "2018-02-12T01:56:23Z")
> [@thatbpguy](#): > > What I say to them is an old Russian trusted saying- That’s just tough shitsky. Cute. What’s the max in cash a family could receive under this system, and what would it take to get to that point? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-about-this-to-end-welfare/808612.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-about-this-to-end-welfare/808612.md?page=3)