# How acceptable would the Lord's Prayer be to non-Christians? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 6, 2011, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-acceptable-would-the-lords-prayer-be-to-non-christians/570420 "2011-02-06T18:38:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2011, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-acceptable-would-the-lords-prayer-be-to-non-christians/570420/41 "2011-02-07T19:31:53Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Speaking as one who was “colonized and persecuted” hell yeah. Don’t you mean “colonized and blessed with the Holy gift of cricket”? ---
**Author:** ![kevlaw](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kevlaw/32/2281_2.png) [@kevlaw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kevlaw)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2011, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-acceptable-would-the-lords-prayer-be-to-non-christians/570420/42 "2011-02-07T19:37:41Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > Well the title mentions non-Christians so I guess we count. > > And don’t assume that it is necessarily problematic to atheists. > I manage to recite it just fine, as I say, for me it is meaningless and carries no power so it takes no effort to recite it and causes me no harm. And, just to emphasize the fact that atheists don’t all sing from the same hymn book (so to speak)… I also manage to recite it just fine and it is neither meaningless, nonsense nor offensive to me. It’s my link to 2000 years of shared history and culture. I don’t believe the words refer to real persons or beings but I enjoy the ceremony of it. It reminds me of home and of my childhood. It’s a bit like proudly hailing flags. As humans, we all seem to enjoy ceremony and celebrate shared heritage. I don’t think I need to give all that up just because I am an atheist. [QUOTE=alphaboi867] As an atheist I find the entire prayer unacceptable and would not say it. I’d also be highly offended if it was said at a event like a graduation or non-religious meeting and probally get up and leave. I also find the Serenity Prayer equally unacceptable. [/QUOTE] I wonder what it’s like to experience this kind of emotion at hearing a prayer. Believe it to be out-of-place, sure. Be slightly uncomfortable, ok, I can imagine that. But to be highly offended? What’s that like? How does it manifest itself? What about the prayer causes such strong emotions in you? ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2011, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-acceptable-would-the-lords-prayer-be-to-non-christians/570420/43 "2011-02-07T19:38:31Z")
Whenever I do inter-denominational services, I stay away from \*all \*prepared prayers (unless the couple I’m marrying has specific requests.) They’re just all asking for trouble, and people seem much happier if I write something so generic that they all assume I agree with them. But, since we’re sharing, here’s my favorite Wiccan piece - actually a reverse prayer, written from the POV of the Deity. I suspect the OP will find it as objectionable as I find the Lord’s Prayer (which I don’t like for the same reasons some other posters have already said: patriarchal and sexist assumptions, allusions to sin and guilt, the idea that some other power can absolve me from the consequences of my own actions, etc.) > [@](#): > > \*\*The Charge of the Star Goddess \*\* > I who am the beauty of the green Earth, > The white Moon among the Stars, > And the Mystery of the Waters, > I call upon your soul to arise and come unto Me. > > For I am the Soul of Nature, which gives life to the universe. > From Me all things proceed, and unto Me they must return. > > Let My worship be in the heart that rejoices, > For behold - all acts of love and pleasure are My rituals. > > Let there be beauty and strength, > Power and compassion, > Honour and humility, > Mirth and reverence within you. > > And you who seek to know Me, > Know that your seeking and yearning will avail you not, > Unless you know the Mystery: > For if that which you seek you find not within yourself, > You will never find it without. > > For behold, I have been with you from the beginning, > And I am that which is attained at the end of desire. > ~Starhawk ---
**Author:** ![kevlaw](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kevlaw/32/2281_2.png) [@kevlaw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kevlaw)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2011, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-acceptable-would-the-lords-prayer-be-to-non-christians/570420/44 "2011-02-07T19:39:30Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > As far as I know it _is_ translated properly. English speaking Muslims still refer to “Allah”. For what it’s worth, my catholic wife says ‘Allah’ when she is speaking her own language (Maltese) but ‘God’ when she is speaking English. ---
**Author:** ![Cumberdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8c91f0/32.png) [@Cumberdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cumberdale)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2011, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-acceptable-would-the-lords-prayer-be-to-non-christians/570420/45 "2011-02-07T20:18:33Z")
> [@kevlaw](#): > > And, just to emphasize the fact that atheists don’t all sing from the same hymn book (so to speak)… > I wonder what it’s like to experience this kind of emotion at hearing a prayer. Believe it to be out-of-place, sure. Be slightly uncomfortable, ok, I can imagine that. > > But to be highly offended? > > What’s that like? How does it manifest itself? What about the prayer causes such strong emotions in you? For me, it is not the prayer itself, but all the baggage that comes with it. If I did not live in a society where believers want to impose their belief on everyone it wouldn’t bother me. If several states in my country still didn’t have it written into their constitutions that you have to believe in god in order to be elected to office, it wouldn’t bother me. If I wasn’t looked down on by believers, it wouldn’t bother me. If I could freely speak my mind about my lack of belief the way believers can speak of their belief, it wouldn’t bother me. If I could go to a sporting event or even watch my congress in action without having to be subjected to silly religious rituals, it wouldn’t bother me. As soon as Jesus, Mary, Allah etc. are spoken of like Zeus, Mt. Olympus and Hercules are spoken of today, then I wouldn’t find such prayers as offensive. I might even come to enjoy them the way I can enjoy Christmas music or reading Nortons Anthology. ---
**Author:** ![toadspittle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c0e974/32.png) [@toadspittle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/toadspittle)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2011, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-acceptable-would-the-lords-prayer-be-to-non-christians/570420/46 "2011-02-07T20:48:49Z")
> [@Zsofia](#): > > Yeah, that’s my new favorite prayer! Me, too. So great. ---
**Author:** ![toadspittle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c0e974/32.png) [@toadspittle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/toadspittle)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2011, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-acceptable-would-the-lords-prayer-be-to-non-christians/570420/47 "2011-02-07T20:51:27Z")
Ugh. Just found a web site with [another translation](http://nushindusociety.org/test/index.php?topic=1318.0) of the Vakratunda, and it’s not nearly as awesome: > [@](#): > > The Lord with the curved trunk and a mighty body, who has the magnificence of a Million suns, I pray to you Oh Lord, to remove the obstacles from all the actions I intend to perform. I’ll stick with RNATB’s. ---
**Author:** ![Kolga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e56c9b/32.png) [@Kolga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kolga)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2011, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-acceptable-would-the-lords-prayer-be-to-non-christians/570420/48 "2011-02-07T20:54:39Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > But, since we’re sharing, here’s my favorite Wiccan piece - actually a reverse prayer, written from the POV of the Deity. I suspect the OP will find it as objectionable as I find the Lord’s Prayer (which I don’t like for the same reasons some other posters have already said: patriarchal and sexist assumptions, allusions to sin and guilt, the idea that some other power can absolve me from the consequences of my own actions, etc.) A good friend of mine has set The Charge of the Goddess to music, and it’s even more beautiful when it’s sung. I have her CD and play it in my car often. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2011, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-acceptable-would-the-lords-prayer-be-to-non-christians/570420/49 "2011-02-07T20:59:49Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > …But, since we’re sharing, here’s my favorite Wiccan piece - actually a reverse prayer, written from the POV of the Deity. I suspect the OP will find it as objectionable as I find the Lord’s Prayer… I don’t know why you think that. Although I’d be unlikely to utter it myself, given its flowery language, I have no substantive objection to it at all. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2011, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-acceptable-would-the-lords-prayer-be-to-non-christians/570420/50 "2011-02-07T21:36:45Z")
> [@Cumberdale](#): > > For me, it is not the prayer itself, but all the baggage that comes with it. If I did not live in a society where believers want to impose their belief on everyone it wouldn’t bother me. > > If several states in my country still didn’t have it written into their constitutions that you have to believe in god in order to be elected to office, it wouldn’t bother me. > > If I wasn’t looked down on by believers, it wouldn’t bother me. > > If I could freely speak my mind about my lack of belief the way believers can speak of their belief, it wouldn’t bother me. > > If I could go to a sporting event or even watch my congress in action without having to be subjected to silly religious rituals, it wouldn’t bother me. > > As soon as Jesus, Mary, Allah etc. are spoken of like Zeus, Mt. Olympus and Hercules are spoken of today, then I wouldn’t find such prayers as offensive. I might even come to enjoy them the way I can enjoy Christmas music or reading Nortons Anthology. I can understand that, in the UK this is, thankfully, not the case. Religion remains a private matter. Very rarely spoken about. I can honestly say that of the dozen or so close colleagues I work with every day I have absolutely no idea what religion they are, if any. It simply never comes up in conversation ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2011, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-acceptable-would-the-lords-prayer-be-to-non-christians/570420/51 "2011-02-07T21:44:48Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > I don’t know why you think that. Although I’d be unlikely to utter it myself, given its flowery language, I have no substantive objection to it at all. I’m glad, since I didn’t post it with the intention to offend, although I did sort of hope it would illustrate, through reciprocity, some of the reasons some non-Christians don’t like The Lord’s Prayer. The proclamation of female deity, the elevation of hedonism to religious rite, etc. doesn’t sit well with most Christians I’ve shared it with. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2011, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-acceptable-would-the-lords-prayer-be-to-non-christians/570420/52 "2011-02-07T21:48:53Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > There are slightly different variations in various Christian faiths, but here’s how the Episcopal Book of Common Prayer puts it: > > ``` > *Our Father who art in heaven, > hallowed be thy name. > Thy kingdom come. > Thy will be done > on earth as it is in heaven. > Give us this day our daily bread, > and forgive us our trespasses, > as we forgive those who trespass against us, > and lead us not into temptation, > but deliver us from evil. > For thine is the kingdom, > and the power, and the glory, > for ever and ever. Amen.* > > ``` > > Christ isn’t specifically mentioned, obviously. Would those of other faiths be comfortable in reciting it, were it not for its New Testament origins as the supposed words of Christ himself? Which faiths would, for various reasons, not be likely to recite or adopt it? I heard a Native American prayer very similar to the above, translated is substituted Grandfather for Father and ‘Summerland’ for ‘Thy Kingdom’ There were other changes but those 2 are the only ones I remembered. ---
**Author:** ![fumster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@fumster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fumster)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2011, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-acceptable-would-the-lords-prayer-be-to-non-christians/570420/53 "2011-02-07T21:52:13Z")
> [@kevlaw](#): > > I wonder what it’s like to experience this kind of emotion at hearing a prayer. Believe it to be out-of-place, sure. Be slightly uncomfortable, ok, I can imagine that. > > But to be highly offended? > > What’s that like? How does it manifest itself? What about the prayer causes such strong emotions in you? It’s like someone telling a racist joke; it makes you fell dirty that someone assumed everyone in the room, you included, shared the same sentiment. No, thank you I actually don’t think that some guy has a kingdom whose will should be done. We had a revolution to get away from that shit. And no, I don’t think there is some invisible guy that provides me with my daily sustenance or that I should apologize to him over some fictional event that happened 6,000 years ago. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2011, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-acceptable-would-the-lords-prayer-be-to-non-christians/570420/54 "2011-02-07T22:51:41Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > I’m glad, since I didn’t post it with the intention to offend, although I did sort of hope it would illustrate, through reciprocity, some of the reasons some non-Christians don’t like The Lord’s Prayer. The proclamation of female deity, the elevation of hedonism to religious rite, etc. doesn’t sit well with most Christians I’ve shared it with. EH really isn’t that sort of Christian, and indeed there aren’t many of them here. ---
**Author:** ![kevlaw](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kevlaw/32/2281_2.png) [@kevlaw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kevlaw)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2011, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-acceptable-would-the-lords-prayer-be-to-non-christians/570420/55 "2011-02-07T23:22:34Z")
> [@sh1bu1](#): > > It’s like someone telling a racist joke; it makes you fell dirty that someone assumed everyone in the room, you included, shared the same sentiment. Now i understand even less. Racists jokes are intended to cause offense. Prayers aren’t. Why take offense at someone’s mistaken assumptions? Why not politely correct them? ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2011, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-acceptable-would-the-lords-prayer-be-to-non-christians/570420/56 "2011-02-08T00:09:17Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > As far as I know it _is_ translated properly. English speaking Muslims still refer to “Allah”. The kind of Muslim who would insist that “Allah” cannot be translated as “God” would also scoff at the idea that a string of sentences in a language other than Arabic can be considered an Islamic prayer. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2011, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-acceptable-would-the-lords-prayer-be-to-non-christians/570420/57 "2011-02-08T01:01:36Z")
> [@toadspittle](#): > > Ugh. Just found a web site with [another translation](http://nushindusociety.org/test/index.php?topic=1318.0) of the Vakratunda, and it’s not nearly as awesome: > > I’ll stick with RNATB’s. Its really just RNATB’s version made politically correct by replacing “fat” with “mighty body” - and some other minor translation details. From now on, I think I’ll refer to those who are overweight as having a “mighty body.” ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2011, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-acceptable-would-the-lords-prayer-be-to-non-christians/570420/58 "2011-02-08T01:09:22Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > And, as has been mentioned before, _allah_ is the Arabic word meaning god. In Arabic, Apollo is the Greek _allah_ of the sun; . I don’t think so. I believe there’s a bit similar but different word for deities other than God/Allah. So, though the Abrahamic god would be properly called Allah, regardless of the specific religion, Appolo wouldn’t. ---
**Author:** ![fumster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@fumster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fumster)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2011, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-acceptable-would-the-lords-prayer-be-to-non-christians/570420/59 "2011-02-08T01:20:21Z")
> [@kevlaw](#): > > Now i understand even less. Racists jokes are intended to cause offense. No they aren’t, they are intended to be funny. You tell them to a group of people that you think share your sentiments. > [@](#): > > Prayers aren’t. Why take offense at someone’s mistaken assumptions? Why not politely correct them? Public prayer, particularly at large events, shows that the speaker assumes that everyone in the audience shares their sentiment with regard to religion. It’s particularly obnoxious when they preface it with “Let _us_ pray” or say things like “_we_ ask your forgiveness”. Sorry bub, you don’t speak for me. It would be boring, but not offensive for someone to address God directly without trying to pull the audience into the act. The first two words of the Lord’s prayer is “Our Father”, so the speaker is making the assumption that we share a whole host of ideas. Among them, God exists, he is male, and you have the same God as me. As for politely correcting them, should I stand up in the middle of graduation to politely tell the speaker that I don’t share their world view and please refrain from including me? It’s not like it should be a surprise to anyone with a pulse that many people object to prayer at public events, they just don’t give a rat’s ass and do it anyway. ---
**Author:** ![kevlaw](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kevlaw/32/2281_2.png) [@kevlaw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kevlaw)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2011, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-acceptable-would-the-lords-prayer-be-to-non-christians/570420/60 "2011-02-08T01:52:06Z")
> [@sh1bu1](#): > > Sorry bub, you don’t speak for me. It would be boring, but not offensive for someone to address God directly without trying to pull the audience into the act. The first two words of the Lord’s prayer is “Our Father”, so the speaker is making the assumption that we share a whole host of ideas. Among them, God exists, he is male, and you have the same God as me. No worries. I didn’t intend or claim to speak for you. Was just trying to understand, is all. I still don’t really understand why it’s offensive to you but that’s OK. There are a lot of things I don’t understand. Thanks for trying to explain. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-acceptable-would-the-lords-prayer-be-to-non-christians/570420.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-acceptable-would-the-lords-prayer-be-to-non-christians/570420.md?page=4)