# How acceptable would the Lord's Prayer be to non-Christians? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 6, 2011, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-acceptable-would-the-lords-prayer-be-to-non-christians/570420 "2011-02-06T18:38:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![bengangmo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@bengangmo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bengangmo)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2011, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-acceptable-would-the-lords-prayer-be-to-non-christians/570420/61 "2011-02-08T01:58:13Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > I can understand that, in the UK this is, thankfully, not the case. Religion remains a private matter. Very rarely spoken about. I can honestly say that of the dozen or so close colleagues I work with every day I have absolutely no idea what religion they are, if any. It simply never comes up in conversation This plus one for New Zealand also, I am constantly amazed at how big a deal religion is in the US, we normally don’t even know the religion (if any) of our elected representatives. And it would not be a thing that anybody would ask, UNLESS the MP brought it up themselves. ---
**Author:** ![bengangmo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@bengangmo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bengangmo)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2011, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-acceptable-would-the-lords-prayer-be-to-non-christians/570420/62 "2011-02-08T02:06:35Z")
I am not Christian. I would not so much be offended by the prayer itself so much as the motivations of the person that thought it ok to say it at a gathering that included me. This again would depend on the nature of the gathering - I might just quietly stand to one side while the others “prayed”, bow head to “give face” to the organiser or do something else. I believe in asking …someone / something for guidance and “help” in being a better person, but kinda specifically reject the Christian ideal of this person. Once my daughter came home from church (she’s 6) and told me about asking God to save me…this pissed me off. What was most annoying was that somebody would encourage her to pray for me, that somebody thinks it ok to let my kid think I need “saving”. I wasn’t annoyed at the thought of her praying per-se though. Then the other day I came home to find my kid watching (with her Grandfather) some bitch witnessing on how incompassionate buddhists were. One thing is for absolute sure, she will no longer be going to church. ---
**Author:** ![fumster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@fumster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fumster)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2011, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-acceptable-would-the-lords-prayer-be-to-non-christians/570420/63 "2011-02-08T02:56:57Z")
> [@kevlaw](#): > > No worries. I didn’t intend or claim to speak for you. Was just trying to understand, is all. I still don’t really understand why it’s offensive to you but that’s OK. There are a lot of things I don’t understand. > > Thanks for trying to explain. Sorry, I didn’t mean _you_, I meant the person who is praying. You seem OK 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2011, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-acceptable-would-the-lords-prayer-be-to-non-christians/570420/64 "2011-02-08T03:35:49Z")
Another Christian, here (Catholic specifically), and I see no problem with Jewish prayers nor most Muslim ones, and find the oddest thing about the Charge of the Goddess **WhyNot** posted to be the fact that it has the deity (or Deity) as the narrator. For that matter, though, there are a fair number of Christian hymns that do the same: Compare “Lord of the Dance”, for instance. So in that context, it doesn’t seem so odd after all. And on the question of the sex of a deity: First, I don’t actually see anything in the text (as opposed to title) of the prayer **WhyNot** posted that indicates anything about the deity’s sex. Second, though, I also don’t actually believe that God has any specific gender, and when I use male pronouns, it’s just out of force of habit. Given that I don’t have any real objection to using male pronouns for the sexless God, though, it would be hypocritical to object to someone using female pronouns for the same Entity. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2011, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-acceptable-would-the-lords-prayer-be-to-non-christians/570420/65 "2011-02-08T04:24:44Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > …From now on, I think I’ll refer to those who are overweight as having a “mighty body.” The U.S.'s position as the world’s sole superpower is now safe for the foreseeable future. > [@Chronos](#): > > …For that matter, though, there are a fair number of Christian hymns that do the same: Compare “Lord of the Dance”, for instance… If you insist on bringing Michael Flatley into this discussion, I’m sorry, but I’ll have to implore God to smite you. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2011, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-acceptable-would-the-lords-prayer-be-to-non-christians/570420/66 "2011-02-08T04:39:20Z")
There is some conflict with “Give us our daily bread” compared to the Hebrew “Blessed are you who causes grain to grow from the earth.” ---
**Author:** ![fumster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@fumster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fumster)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2011, 6:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-acceptable-would-the-lords-prayer-be-to-non-christians/570420/67 "2011-02-08T06:30:02Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > There is some conflict with “Give us our daily bread” compared to the Hebrew “Blessed are you who causes grain to grow from the earth.” I thought Onan made grain grow. After all, he spilled the seed on the ground. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2011, 7:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-acceptable-would-the-lords-prayer-be-to-non-christians/570420/68 "2011-02-08T07:13:23Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > I don’t think so. I believe there’s a bit similar but different word for deities other than God/Allah. So, though the Abrahamic god would be properly called Allah, regardless of the specific religion, Appolo wouldn’t. Wrong. As stated local languages substitute their local word for God. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2011, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-acceptable-would-the-lords-prayer-be-to-non-christians/570420/69 "2011-02-09T04:06:39Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Wrong. As stated local languages substitute their local word for God. For “ **G** od”, indeed, that is the abrahamic god. Not for a random “ **g** od” like Apollo. I just verified by looking up wikipidia. The word for “god” in Arabic is “ilah” I was pretty sure it was a quite similar word because I knew both words appeared in the Shahada, and the beginning of it, that I learnt at some point sounds like a long string of “la” and “i”. That’s something like “There’s no _ilah_ but\* Allah\*” . So, Apollo couldn’t be called the “Greek allah of the sun”, as stated in the post I was responding to. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2011, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-acceptable-would-the-lords-prayer-be-to-non-christians/570420/70 "2011-02-09T04:42:18Z")
[From Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allah): > [@](#): > > The term Allāh is derived from a contraction of the Arabic definite article al- “the” and ʼilāh “deity, god” to al-lāh meaning “the [sole] deity, God” (ho theos monos).[4] Cognates of the name “Allāh” exist in other Semitic languages, including Hebrew and Aramaic.[3] Biblical Hebrew mostly uses the plural form (but functional singular) Elohim. The corresponding Aramaic form is ʼĔlāhā ܐܠܗܐ in Biblical Aramaic and ʼAlâhâ ܐܲܠܵܗܵܐ in Syriac.[5] ---
**Author:** ![cerberus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/71e660/32.png) [@cerberus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cerberus)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2011, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-acceptable-would-the-lords-prayer-be-to-non-christians/570420/71 "2011-02-09T05:05:35Z")
I like Hemingway’s take on it: “Our nada who art in nada, nada be thy name thy kingdom nada thy will be nada as it is in nada. Give us this nada our daily nada and nada us our nada as we nada our nadas and nada us not into nada but deliver us from nada; pues nada. Hail nothing full” ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2011, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-acceptable-would-the-lords-prayer-be-to-non-christians/570420/72 "2011-02-09T13:46:30Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > For “ **G** od”, indeed, that is the abrahamic god. Not for a random “ **g** od” like Apollo. > > I just verified by looking up wikipidia. The word for “god” in Arabic is “ilah” > > I was pretty sure it was a quite similar word because I knew both words appeared in the Shahada, and the beginning of it, that I learnt at some point sounds like a long string of “la” and “i”. > > That’s something like “There’s no _ilah_ but\* Allah\*” . > > So, Apollo couldn’t be called the “Greek allah of the sun”, as stated in the post I was responding to. Defeated by Dio. “ilah” was the word in Muhammad’s time. Today IIRC “Allah” is it. ---
**Author:** ![Acid\_Lamp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Acid\_Lamp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acid_Lamp)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2011, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-acceptable-would-the-lords-prayer-be-to-non-christians/570420/73 "2011-02-09T14:27:50Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Oddly enough, the prayer of St. Francis of Assisi is the one I’ve seen most often in Pagan Circles and homes. In fact, I have a copy of it hanging on my wall. Actually this wouldn’t be bad at all as a personal affirmation, or meditative saying for Atheists with only a little tweaking. Something like the following, (substitute I for we or us as necessary): Make of Myself an instrument of peace. Where there is hatred, let me sow love. Where there is injury, pardon. Where there is doubt, understanding. Where there is despair, hope. Where there is ignorance, enlightenment. Where there is misery, reprieve. Remember that I may not so much seek to be consoled, as to console; to be understood, as to understand; to be loved, as to love. For it is in giving that we receive. It is in pardoning that we are pardoned, and it is in dying that our works are finished. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2011, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-acceptable-would-the-lords-prayer-be-to-non-christians/570420/74 "2011-02-09T14:42:29Z")
Isn’t the line “in giving _of ourselves_ we receive”? ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2011, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-acceptable-would-the-lords-prayer-be-to-non-christians/570420/75 "2011-02-09T15:27:43Z")
_and lead us not into temptation_… That’s kind of a weird thing to request of God, isn’t it? I thought it was supposed to be Satan or the sinful nature of human beings that led into temptation. Are there stories of God engaging in shenanigans with people that I’m not aware of? ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2011, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-acceptable-would-the-lords-prayer-be-to-non-christians/570420/76 "2011-02-09T15:49:47Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Defeated by Dio. “ilah” was the word in Muhammad’s time. Today IIRC “Allah” is it. Huh??? That would **confirmed** by Dio : > [@Diogenes](#): > > to al-lāh meaning "**the [sole] deity, God"** (ho theos monos) Note the upper case “G” in “God”. Allah isn’t any random deity worshipped by someone, somewhere at some time. He is **THE** god, the only God refered to in the scriptures of the Abrahamic religions. Appollo doesn’t qualify. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2011, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-acceptable-would-the-lords-prayer-be-to-non-christians/570420/77 "2011-02-09T16:03:14Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Defeated by Dio. “ilah” was the word in Muhammad’s time. Today IIRC “Allah” is it. This was also the response of my Arabic-language classmates to my interpretation (I took a postgrad course in translation last year). “Al-ilah” would have been the Arabic equivalent to “The god” or “God” as opposed to “a god”… talking of those as being two different words is somewhat similar to talking of “rosa” and “rosae” as being two different Latin words: no, they’re different declensions of the same word. “There is no god but God”. **clairobscur** , that “al” is the article. In Arabic they join the name. It is not a different word, it is the marker saying “we’re talking about one specific God and not any god”. We do that in Spanish too: “LA Sonsoles” says you’re speaking about Zapatero’s wife and not any other woman called Sonsoles… in Spanish it’s two separate words and in Arabic the article is conjoined with the noun, but the way you mark the uniqueness of the specific one you’re talking about is by adding the article. It’s a linguistic mechanism for singularization, not a separate word. The Charge of the Goddess, I wouldn’t even have thought of it as having any kind of “elevation of hedonism to religious rite”. Guess I’m more innocent than I thought… that final line reminds me of that part of I think it’s CorI about how faith ends when you see, hope when you receive, and then only Love is left… I’m not explaining it well. It’s like Paul was talking about the end of the road, and that line in the Charge talks about the road itself: he said “when you’re with God, you’ll have nothing to hope for, nothing to wait for, no need to accept things blindly”, the Charge says “find satisfaction and you’ll be with God.” My mother says that, given his own mother’s family history, it’s a pity she (Grandma) does believe in God the Father quite literally. She does seem to think of GtF as being a clone of her own Dad… not the best of references. A “God the Mother” would have been much more satisfactory, being trustworthy and loving if not very smart. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2011, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-acceptable-would-the-lords-prayer-be-to-non-christians/570420/78 "2011-02-09T16:43:14Z")
Are you suggesting that we rewrite the Lord’s Prayer to include demands for all those things, or did you post to the wrong thread? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2011, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-acceptable-would-the-lords-prayer-be-to-non-christians/570420/79 "2011-02-09T16:55:24Z")
My favourite prayer is in the form of a poem by Emerson, superficially at least invoking the Hindu pantheon: > [@](#): > > If the red slayer think he slays, > Or if the slain think he is slain, > They know not well the subtle ways > I keep, and pass, and turn again. > > Far or forgot to me is near, > Shadow and sunlight are the same, > The vanished gods to me appear, > And one to me are shame and fame. > > They reckon ill who leave me out; > When me they fly, I am the wings; > I am the doubter and the doubt, > And I the hymn the Brahmin sings. > > The strong gods pine for my abode, > And pine in vain the sacred Seven; > But thou, meek lover of the good! > Find me, and turn thy back on heaven. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2011, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-acceptable-would-the-lords-prayer-be-to-non-christians/570420/80 "2011-02-09T17:20:08Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Are you suggesting that we rewrite the Lord’s Prayer to include demands for all those things, or did you post to the wrong thread? 😉 I’ve been praying for most of those powers for _years_, but I got zilch. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-acceptable-would-the-lords-prayer-be-to-non-christians/570420.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-acceptable-would-the-lords-prayer-be-to-non-christians/570420.md?page=5)