# How accurate is movie swordfighting? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [April 8, 2005, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-accurate-is-movie-swordfighting/298415 "2005-04-08T16:50:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2005, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-accurate-is-movie-swordfighting/298415/41 "2005-04-11T21:51:14Z")
> [@Kinthalis](#): > > Another thing I just remembered, and is typical of movies is the apparent inffectiveness of armor. In LoTR you saw guys in three quarters harness taking a sword CUT on their breastplate, and just doubling over and dying, or being killed by a rock being thrown at them. You had to ask yourself: why did they were the armor? It apparently didn’t do a damn thign to help them out. Only a tiny part of the abomination that was warfare in those movies. I mean, the enemy bust down the door and the archers send just one volley before putting down their bows and rushing in for swordplay? Why didn’t they keep shooting as long as they could? And didn’t ANYBODY in Middle Earth understand the first thing about pikes? A disciplined square of pikemen is nearly impervious to swordsmen on horseback and wouldn’t be broken up by the first couple horsemen. And don’t get me started on how, despite having all the warning of a coming attack you can imagine, the ground was not prepared. I saw nobody digging trenches or deploying any other field obstacles intended to slow the enemy’s advance. ---
**Author:** ![Kinthalis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kinthalis/32/16084_2.png) [@Kinthalis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kinthalis)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2005, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-accurate-is-movie-swordfighting/298415/42 "2005-04-11T21:51:47Z")
> [@smiling bandit](#): > > Actually, after the invention of plate swords began to dissappear from the battlefield, at least against knights. Hammers and axes took over, along with pikes and halberds. I don’t think so. Swords certianly did not dissapear fomr the battlefield, they continued to be the mainstay weapon of many units, and the scondary weapon of choice for most. Yes, it certainly was less effective against plate than pole arms. > [@](#): > > :eek: > > The devil you say! > > We have extensive readings of Gladiatorial combat. It may not be exactly reproduced in full, but we can make pretty darn good reproductions since we have many blow-by-blow fighting accounts, training descriptions, and we know what kind of equipment they had. > > Besides, while exact training styles differ, there re really only a few ways to wield most weapons, and while weapon styles differ, it basically comes down to variations on swords, spears, and bows. Well it would then a re-creaiton in a mroe literal sense. It’s not a historically verifiable style. Who wrote these blow by blow accounts? Was it hsitorians, or men who were martialy educated? Were the accounts exacting in the sense that they could be replicated and understood in MARTIAL terms? You may be correct, but as far as I know we do not have Any treatise, any combat manuals, or any (or perhaps much) martially useful text of combat to even begin to bring a historically accurate system to life again. What we could probably do is use our understanding of later systems of combat, and scientific understading of body mechanics, combine it with the weapons of the time and come up with one way they ‘could’ have been used. But this woudl have to major draw backs: 1. We could nto verifiy it’s historicla accuracy, since we don’t have any material with which to compare it to. 2. Most importantly, we lack the system of martial evolution that forms martial systems of combat. The reason medieval and renaissance martial arts work is because through generations of warfare, strife, and life and death combat, masters took what worked and kept it and what didn’t work they threw out. How do we do the same in a time and place were such things are no longer feasable? ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2005, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-accurate-is-movie-swordfighting/298415/43 "2005-04-11T22:05:13Z")
> [@smiling bandit](#): > > Besides, while exact training styles differ, there re really only a few ways to wield most weapons, and while weapon styles differ, it basically comes down to variations on swords, spears, and bows. And maces and picks and hammers. (A weight with a pointy bit to concentrate force, on the end of a long arm, swung and not thrust) ---
**Author:** ![Jayrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Jayrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jayrot)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2005, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-accurate-is-movie-swordfighting/298415/44 "2005-04-11T23:07:33Z")
> [@Kinthalis](#): > > Another thing I just remembered, and is typical of movies is the apparent inffectiveness of armor. In LoTR you saw guys in three quarters harness taking a sword CUT on their breastplate, and just doubling over and dying, or being killed by a rock being thrown at them. This is now known as the Stormtrooper Principle. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2005, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-accurate-is-movie-swordfighting/298415/45 "2005-04-11T23:27:59Z")
> [@](#): > > Actually, I seem to recall a french school of quarterstaff fighting that strongly involved spinning the staff hand over hand quite rapidly. When I learned Bo (quarterstaff) in my karate classes, we also learned a move which involved twirling the staff in front. Mostly, it was just a training exercise to develop dexterity with the weapon, but one could also smoothly transition from such a twirl into a strike, with a little extra power behind it. Probably not practical, though, since it’s so slow. > [@](#): > > And didn’t ANYBODY in Middle Earth understand the first thing about pikes? A disciplined square of pikemen is nearly impervious to swordsmen on horseback and wouldn’t be broken up by the first couple horsemen. If you’re referring to the charge Gandalf led against the Orcs, I think the point was that the Orcs _weren’t_ disciplined, and Gandalf’s surprise charge out of the Sun, perhaps augmented by his magic, broke the Orcs’ morale and sent them into disarray. ---
**Author:** ![dotchan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9d8465/32.png) [@dotchan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dotchan)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2005, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-accurate-is-movie-swordfighting/298415/46 "2005-04-11T23:53:48Z")
Further along the LoTR hijack, I’d just like to drop in and say that me and all my friends thought the seige of Helm’s Deep was the Stupidest Plan Ever. (Yeah, yeah, Sauruman didn’t expect the resistance to be so stiff or that walking trees would attack his unguarded tower. But nobody expected the Spanish Inquisition, either. :wally ) ---
**Author:** ![Kinthalis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kinthalis/32/16084_2.png) [@Kinthalis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kinthalis)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2005, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-accurate-is-movie-swordfighting/298415/47 "2005-04-12T00:23:55Z")
I’d like to show some examples of historically accurate swordplay for you interested dopers to take a look, sadly my camera is on the fritz. Additionally, the few clips online by many historical schools are usually meant as dry expositions for other martial artists, and most people not interested in the scholarly aspect of the arts would probably find it rather boring, and would not understand what’s being portrayed as it’s usually out of context or emp[ahsizing a particular technique. I did find this short clip which shows what actually happens on the bind (as I mentioned above) thanks to Arma Poland 😉 (Right click and save as) [http://arma.lh.pl/wydarzenia/armagathering2002/codex2.avi](http://arma.lh.pl/wydarzenia/armagathering2002/codex2.avi) ---
**Author:** ![LH75](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lh75/32/4438_2.png) [@LH75](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LH75)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2005, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-accurate-is-movie-swordfighting/298415/48 "2005-04-12T01:00:20Z")
my replica of anduril weighs 6.2 lbs, glamdring weighs in at 4.8 lbs and sting weighs 1.6 lbs ---
**Author:** ![Kinthalis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kinthalis/32/16084_2.png) [@Kinthalis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kinthalis)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2005, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-accurate-is-movie-swordfighting/298415/49 "2005-04-12T01:18:30Z")
> [@longhair75](#): > > my replica of anduril weighs 6.2 lbs, glamdring weighs in at 4.8 lbs and sting weighs 1.6 lbs Well those are fantasy weapons, probably not based on historical pieces, and also probably not made to functional standards. Anduril, given functional blade geometry, blade and hilt design, etc would be considerably lighter. 6.2 pounds is just way too heavy for a longsword. Glamdrig is way overweighted as well. ---
**Author:** ![JSexton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/96bed5/32.png) [@JSexton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JSexton)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2005, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-accurate-is-movie-swordfighting/298415/50 "2005-04-12T04:26:16Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Well, considering how no one here is a Samurai, Midevel Knight or Roman Legionaire, nor has actually seen a swordfight to the death I have to question anyone stating the “accuracy” of movie swordfighting with absolute certainty. True. I have, however, witnessed firsthand several genuine fights with club, tire iron, chain, knife and pool cue. This is not posturing, this is people trying to inflict grievous bodily harm. (In fact, I believe those were the charges filed.) While the individuals were certainly not professional soldiers, they did have a certain darwinian understanding of what doesn’t get you killed on the street. Much of what I am saying is based on that, not Ren Faire stuff. > [@Kinthalis](#): > > > [@JSexton](#): > > > > Right. Here’s what I mean: A gallon of milk is not particularly heavy. Holding it at arms length for more than a minute or so, and it will feel much heavier as your arm tires. That’s what I’m talking about. > > Well a gallon of milk will weigh close to 8 pounds, no? > > That’s roughly 3 times the weight of a medieval two-handed longsword, which averaged from aorund 2.5 to 3.5 pounds. Arming swords (or short swords), depending on their style could weight about the same to a bit less. Rapiers would weigh close to this as well, with some weighing a bit less as well. > > I can do drills at full speed for roughly the same amount of time I could do Karate drills at full speed (which is a pitiful 15 minutes, I need to get in better shape!). If 8 pounds of milk held stationary for one minute = tired arm, then how long do you think you can wave three pounds of steel around? Also, drills and combat are not the same. Not even close. Adrenaline is a very powerful thing, and the fight/flight syndrome will sap your strength far faster than you would expect. This is also assuming you manage to not take any wounds, which is unlikely. I’ve never seen a knife fight end without wounds on BOTH sides, ever. > [@](#): > > See above. I’d expect two people in good physical condition to get tired at about the same time (roughly) from either swordplay or say boxing/wrestling. I’m glad you mentioned boxing. Ever seen someone fight with brass knuckles or loaded gloves? After just a few rounds, they tend to let their hands drop much lower than normal instead of keeping their guard up, out of sheer fatigue. And this is just a few ounces of weight here. ---
**Author:** ![Triskadecamus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b19c9b/32.png) [@Triskadecamus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Triskadecamus)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2005, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-accurate-is-movie-swordfighting/298415/51 "2005-04-12T05:18:07Z")
Say what you want about sword fighting tiring you out after fifteen minutes. I believe a bunch of Greeks marched out twenty six miles to Marathon, then fought Persians all day the next day, using Bronze weapons, which are heavier than steel. Then one poor sucker had to run back to Athens to let them know how it turned out. I am sure that that battle did not go on uninterrupted for the whole day, but when you are up to your ass in Immortals, you keep on fighting. Or you die. Individual melee duels were only one small part of combat, in most wars. A much bigger part was relying on training, and not protecting one side of your body, because that was your sideman’s responsibility. You protected your other sideman, and looked for opportunities to stick that twelve-foot long Greek spear into some unsuspecting foreigner, who thought he was fighting the guy beside you. Chasing them, or running from them was another aerobic activity you could count on enjoying. ## Tris “Our friend brings us good news. If the Persians darken the sun with their arrows, we will be able to fight in the shade.” ~ Dieneces of Sparta ~ ---
**Author:** ![Kinthalis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kinthalis/32/16084_2.png) [@Kinthalis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kinthalis)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2005, 11:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-accurate-is-movie-swordfighting/298415/52 "2005-04-12T11:28:26Z")
Right, combat will tire you, regardless of what weapons you use. Typically, a duel would not go into several minutes unless armor is involved. Combat on the field of battle relied on ranks switching positions in order to rest for a few minutes. In this way a group of well trained men can fight almost indefinately. But I’ll say it again, take two well trained people and have them fight different opponents, one with a sword and one unarmed with intent to kill. Assume the sword fight lasts as long as the unarmed fight and you will likely see oponents tire out at roughly the same rate. In unarmed combat range is much smaller, which means more movement. Grappling requires an extreme amount of energy, the sword fight has less of a chance ot end up in a seirous grapple than an unarmed fight. ---
**Author:** ![ShibbOleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/848f3c/32.png) [@ShibbOleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShibbOleth)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2005, 11:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-accurate-is-movie-swordfighting/298415/53 "2005-04-12T11:53:16Z")
> [@Triskadecamus](#): > > …but when you are up to your ass in Immortals, you keep on fighting. Or you die. Just wanted to say that would be a great sig line. Also, you geeks got distracted by the LotR detour and no one has been brave enough to take a shot at my samurai question from page 1. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-accurate-is-movie-swordfighting/298415.md?page=2)