# How accurate was the battle style portrayed in The Patriot? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 16, 2011, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-accurate-was-the-battle-style-portrayed-in-the-patriot/582124 "2011-05-16T19:10:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2011, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-accurate-was-the-battle-style-portrayed-in-the-patriot/582124/81 "2011-05-19T21:42:44Z")
Around here we assume posters are fluent in Latin. And Greek. And Hebrew. And Sanskrit. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2011, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-accurate-was-the-battle-style-portrayed-in-the-patriot/582124/82 "2011-05-19T22:43:52Z")
> [@Irishman](#): > > Jesus Fuck, if you’re going to post about a phrase in Latin, can you have the decency to translate it? > > _ **It is sweet and honourable to die for one’s country.** _ I’ll have the decency to translate Latin when you have the decency not to blaspheme. :rolleyes: Alternatively, [JFGI](http://justfuckinggoogleit.com/). ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2011, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-accurate-was-the-battle-style-portrayed-in-the-patriot/582124/83 "2011-05-19T23:27:05Z")
> [@Irishman](#): > > Jesus Fuck, if you’re going to post about a phrase in Latin, can you have the decency to translate it? > > _ **It is sweet and honourable to die for one’s country.** _ My bad, I assumed it had been translated it in one of the other times it had been mentioned previously. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2011, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-accurate-was-the-battle-style-portrayed-in-the-patriot/582124/84 "2011-05-20T15:35:14Z")
> [@Irishman](#): > > Jesus Fuck, if you’re going to post about a phrase in Latin, can you have the decency to translate it? > > _ **It is sweet and honourable to die for one’s country.** _ I didn’t think anything of it; I assumed most people who read this board would have run across Wilfred Owen’s poetry at some point (and probably Sassoon’s too) I read that one in 9th grade English class myself… ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2011, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-accurate-was-the-battle-style-portrayed-in-the-patriot/582124/85 "2011-05-20T16:09:22Z")
> [@Malacandra](#): > > I’ll have the decency to translate Latin when you have the decency not to blaspheme. :rolleyes: Buddha dammit, I’ll blaspheme if I feel like it. I thought we had a rule around here we have to post in English? ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2011, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-accurate-was-the-battle-style-portrayed-in-the-patriot/582124/86 "2011-05-20T16:31:44Z")
Not when we are quoting not only a famous Latin proverb, but a line from what is probably the best-known and most widely read poem on World War One ever written. That plus Google means the problem is at your end. Probably because your end has your head in it. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2011, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-accurate-was-the-battle-style-portrayed-in-the-patriot/582124/87 "2011-05-20T16:38:24Z")
> [@marshmallow](#): > > I’ve always wondered about this. Years of StarCraft has taught me the best way to win a head on fight (especially I’d imagine with weapons that penetrate through their targets) is to get a concave arc around your opponent. If he stays in the high density blob formation he’s screwed. Especially since muskets are so inaccurate it seems insane to stand shoulder to shoulder. You should spread out and get lots of gaps so they can actually miss. > > Now the problem with that is infantry charges and cavalry. Well, you can usually see that coming, right? So that’s when you form up into your own blob and reduce your formation’s surface area. Maybe that wouldn’t work well with a ragtag force, but why not a highly trained professional army? Forming a crescent lets you concentrate fire on one target at a time, but leaves you vulnerable to being flanked by another unit. Back in those days, the real danger from being flanked wasn’t so much casualties, although that was a serious concern, it was the flanked soldiers getting nervous, and fleeing. So between having 2-3 rank spread formations to maximize firepower, and trying to keep from being flanked (look up “refusing the flank” if you want), you ended up with your regiments in double lines, and each regiment in between two others. (except if you were on the end of the line, and you were beside one regiment, and likely curled into more of a “J” instead of a straight line.) The real trick was how to use this style of warfare in conjunction with terrain. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2011, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-accurate-was-the-battle-style-portrayed-in-the-patriot/582124/88 "2011-05-20T16:43:48Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > Not when we are quoting not only a famous Latin proverb, but a line from what is probably the best-known and most widely read poem on World War One ever written. That plus Google means the problem is at your end. Probably because your end has your head in it. pwned! ---
**Author:** ![UncleRojelio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/unclerojelio/32/3160_2.png) [@UncleRojelio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleRojelio)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2011, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-accurate-was-the-battle-style-portrayed-in-the-patriot/582124/89 "2011-05-20T17:04:28Z")
If you have the time and inclination, but aren’t into dry histories, you can pick up quite a bit of the strategy and tactics of Napoleonic warfare from the [Sharp stories](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernard_Cornwell#The_Sharpe_stories) by Bernard Cornwell. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2011, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-accurate-was-the-battle-style-portrayed-in-the-patriot/582124/90 "2011-05-20T18:44:34Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > Around here we assume posters are fluent in Latin. And Greek. And Hebrew. And Sanskrit. not to mention Klingon, Na’vi and a smattering of Olde Elvish. Mostly just what you learn in high school: Ordering dinner. Asking for the bathroom. Chopping a dudes head off. That sort of stuff. ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2011, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-accurate-was-the-battle-style-portrayed-in-the-patriot/582124/91 "2011-05-20T21:37:17Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > Probably because your end has your head in it. Blaspheming isn’t against the rules. Personal insults in this forum are. Take it to the Pit. ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2011, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-accurate-was-the-battle-style-portrayed-in-the-patriot/582124/92 "2011-05-21T04:56:58Z")
Just to explain further, my comments were meant as humorous hyperbole. Sorry if they weren’t taken as such. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2011, 6:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-accurate-was-the-battle-style-portrayed-in-the-patriot/582124/93 "2011-05-21T06:49:24Z")
Wow, that’s you and **Miller** both desperately falling back on the “Just kidding!!!1!” defence in this thread. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![kombatminipig](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/b5ac83/32.png) [@kombatminipig](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kombatminipig)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2011, 10:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-accurate-was-the-battle-style-portrayed-in-the-patriot/582124/94 "2011-05-21T10:00:31Z")
> [@Malacandra](#): > > Wow, that’s you and **Miller** both desperately falling back on the “Just kidding!!!1!” defence in this thread. 😃 And you know who else tried that one? Hitler! ---
**Author:** ![twickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ec9cab/32.png) [@twickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/twickster)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2011, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-accurate-was-the-battle-style-portrayed-in-the-patriot/582124/95 "2011-05-22T12:54:02Z")
Posting in languages other than English is against the rules; a translation would have been nice. Insulting each other is also against the rules. Please knock it off. No warnings issued. **twickster** , Cafe Society moderator ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2011, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-accurate-was-the-battle-style-portrayed-in-the-patriot/582124/96 "2011-05-22T14:06:48Z")
> [@marshmallow](#): > > I’ve always wondered about this. Years of StarCraft has taught me the best way to win a head on fight (especially I’d imagine with weapons that penetrate through their targets) is to get a concave arc around your opponent. If he stays in the high density blob formation he’s screwed. Especially since muskets are so inaccurate it seems insane to stand shoulder to shoulder. You should spread out and get lots of gaps so they can actually miss. The problem you’re now running into by spreading out is one of command and control. Remember, Major Marshmallow, as a commander in the Napoleonic era you’re commanding people solely with your voice, runners, and maybe a bugle, if people can hear it over the shooting and screaming. Keeping people moving in formation looks really easy on film. In real life it is amazingly, amazingly hard. Honestly; you just have no idea. Get 200 friends and family members out to a field some day, put them in a square, and try to have them do anything complicated and you’ll have people bumping and tripping like they’d just learned to walk. Furthermore, you’re dealing with what men at the time called the “Feel of cloth” - the comforting and compelling feeling that your buddies are right next to you. It’s enormously motivating to have your friend right next to you; it fills the soldier with bravery and makes him much likelier to fire his weapon (prior to very modern times, a great many soldiers, if not most, would not fire if they had the chance to avoid it.) Oh, and we’re not done yet; there’s also the fact that you’re dealing with soldiers who are, shall we say, not up to today’s standards. They’re probably ridiculously uneducated, untravelled, and their training essentially amounts to how to march, reload, and shoot. It’s not the full-on psycholoigally though-out training of today. Indeed, there’s a good chance many of your soldiers joined just so they could eat more often, or to escape justice. Given a chance, many of them will simply run away and there’s not really a whole lot you can do about it, either. These are not the trained, disciplined, self-managing professional killers that modern First World armies employ. In other words, close formation in part of the deal in terms of _maintaining the cohesion of your army._ Cohesion’s not everything, but it’s close to it. If your army becomes unravelled, you lose. It will fall apart in organizational shock and cease to be an army; instead you will have thousands of guys confusedly trying to fight, run, or hide. > [@](#): > > Now the problem with that is infantry charges and cavalry. Well, you can usually see that coming, right? So that’s when you form up into your own blob and reduce your formation’s surface area. Maybe that wouldn’t work well with a ragtag force, but why not a highly trained professional army? 1. You don’t have any such thing inthe sense a person in 2011 would think of it. 2. Because you don’t have time and you don’t have radios and nobody would hear you yelling and bang, you’re dead. These’a term for the phenomenon of modern people assuming people in the past were stupid, and damned if I can remember it, but the usual “why did people fight standing up?” threads we get every six months are just another example of this. Trust me; whatever idea you can think of, they thought of it too. After all, it was their asses on the line, and if standing on their heads would have made it likelier to win the battle they’d have done it. The tactics of the time were exactly what would work given the resources they had to work with. ---
**Author:** ![lisiate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f05b48/32.png) [@lisiate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lisiate)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2011, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-accurate-was-the-battle-style-portrayed-in-the-patriot/582124/97 "2011-05-22T22:26:05Z")
> [@UncleRojelio](#): > > If you have the time and inclination, but aren’t into dry histories, you can pick up quite a bit of the strategy and tactics of Napoleonic warfare from the [Sharp stories](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernard_Cornwell#The_Sharpe_stories) by Bernard Cornwell. Seconding this and adding a plug for the Sharpe TV series as well (although budget limitations meant they didn’t really show any big battles as I recall). Added bonus - Sean Bean (Boromir, Ned Stark) plays Sharpe very well. ---
**Author:** ![ronenfe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/df705f/32.png) [@ronenfe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ronenfe)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2011, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-accurate-was-the-battle-style-portrayed-in-the-patriot/582124/98 "2011-11-08T23:37:44Z")
I can think about 100 better ways to fight. Why don’t they prone before the enemy makes the shot, they just stand in front of the guns like standing in front of a firing squad. Why not choose a strategic location where they have height advantage and they can cover, a plane field of grass is not the right place. Why they don’t build shielded carriages they can push and stand behind them and fire the enemy. What men will stand in front of a cannon or a gun and not lay down to take cover? Why they didn’t use a sling or throw stones in addition to the guns? It seems like they didn’t take care at all protecting their own lives, when they charge they should do it carefully not like that, they should watch each other back. ---
**Author:** ![lisiate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f05b48/32.png) [@lisiate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lisiate)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2011, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-accurate-was-the-battle-style-portrayed-in-the-patriot/582124/99 "2011-11-09T04:38:21Z")
Um, **RickJay** two posts above yours pretty much answered your point _nearly five months before you even made it._ ---
**Author:** ![Walther\_Ego](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8dc957/32.png) [@Walther\_Ego](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walther_Ego)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2011, 7:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-accurate-was-the-battle-style-portrayed-in-the-patriot/582124/100 "2011-11-09T07:38:44Z")
Could you train zombies to fire musket volleys in straight lines? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-accurate-was-the-battle-style-portrayed-in-the-patriot/582124.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-accurate-was-the-battle-style-portrayed-in-the-patriot/582124.md?page=6)