# How advanced were the Neanderthals? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 13, 2010, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-advanced-were-the-neanderthals/550149 "2010-08-13T13:37:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2010, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-advanced-were-the-neanderthals/550149/21 "2010-08-13T20:28:19Z")
> [@qazwart](#): > > Neanderthals hunted for meat, but with hand axes. A lot of Neanderthal male bones show lots of trauma from this type of hunting style. It appears that Homo Sapiens had developed spears used for hunting. Maybe because they weren’t as big and strong as the Neanderthals, and didn’t want to charge up to Rhinos and Elephants armed with just a sharp rock, but that could have been Homo Sapiens’ advantage over the Neanderthals. For hunting big game, did _Homo sapiens_ use snares and concealed pits that far back in time? How about the driving-prey-over-a-cliff strategy? Humans also did that long-distance-running hunting style long before meeting up with Neanderthals, right? That may have been a strategy that Neanderthals couldn’t have adopted as effectively. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2010, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-advanced-were-the-neanderthals/550149/22 "2010-08-13T22:17:20Z")
> [@needscoffee](#): > > > [@John\_Mace](#): > > > > One key behavioral difference that we’re able to see from the fossil record is that Neanderthals seem to have been much more specialized in their diet. About 90% of their diet was meat. We, on the other hand, have (and our ancestors had) a much more varied diet. > > I don’t believe this is so (the part about our ancestors’ diets being more varied). Up until the advent of agriculture, diets were pretty much limited to meat and whatever vegetation was handily growing nearby. If you’re talking after the beginning of agriculture, that’s different. No, I’m not talking about agriculture. Modern h/g groups (other than the Eskimos) do not have 90% of the diet consisting of meat, and neither did their ancestors 50k years ago. ---
**Author:** ![qazwart](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/5fc32e/32.png) [@qazwart](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/qazwart)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2010, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-advanced-were-the-neanderthals/550149/23 "2010-08-13T22:34:34Z")
> [@bordelond](#): > > For hunting big game, did _Homo sapiens_ use snares and concealed pits that far back in time? How about the driving-prey-over-a-cliff strategy? I haven’t heard about those. Unfortunately, concealed pits don’t stay around for over 30,000 years and how would you see an over-the-cliff hunting strategy? What are found with early Homo Sapiens are spear heads, fish hooks, etc. Fish hooks are found in South Africa and date as far back as 50,000 years ago. These aren’t associated with Neanderthals. All Neanderthals had were hand axes. > [@bordelond](#): > > Humans also did that long-distance-running hunting style long before meeting up with Neanderthals, right? That may have been a strategy that Neanderthals couldn’t have adopted as effectively. Running after game probably predates Homo Sapiens. Homo Erectus had long legs and could run. Their body style matched modern man. Neanderthals probably rand down their game too. It’s just that once they ran down their game, they jumped them with hand axes rather than spear them. The world entered a long dry period about 75,000 years ago and Homo Sapiens apparently were forced to retreat down to the South coast of Africa. This is about the time the first fish hooks are discovered. It is possible that Homo Sapiens had fish nets too, but those don’t preserve very well. Modern man almost became extinct during this time, but apparently by increasing their diet to include fish and hunting more efficiently with spears, they were able to survive. Once the dry spell was over, Homo Sapiens moved up Africa and where ever they settled, whatever Humanoid species was around disappeared. There were several _archaic_ species of man, and Neanderthal was only one of them. Even Homo Erectus and several species of australopithecus were still around at that time. Homo Sapiens were very efficient hunters and where ever we spread, large mammalian species quickly disappeared. Some archeologists say it was climate changes, but the coincident of extinction and modern man arrival to a particular area are strong. It is possible that we simply were able to out hunt the other humanoid populations into extinction. Maybe we needed spears because we simply aren’t big and strong enough to bring down a rhino with our bare hands and Neanderthals were. But, once we got spears, we were able to be more efficient hunters. Then, maybe Jarred Diamond is right and it was probably a pathogen. ---
**Author:** ![Anne\_Neville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Anne\_Neville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anne_Neville)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2010, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-advanced-were-the-neanderthals/550149/24 "2010-08-13T23:24:18Z")
> [@qazwart](#): > > how would you see an over-the-cliff hunting strategy? Many dead animals found at the foot of cliffs? Especially if they were found there in large numbers. If they took the animal back to their camp, bones and all, the bones of an animal that died from falling over a cliff might still look different than those of an animal killed with a spear. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2010, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-advanced-were-the-neanderthals/550149/25 "2010-08-13T23:29:29Z")
> [@qazwart](#): > > The world entered a long dry period about 75,000 years ago and Homo Sapiens apparently were forced to retreat down to the South coast of Africa. This is about the time the first fish hooks are discovered. It is possible that Homo Sapiens had fish nets too, but those don’t preserve very well. Modern man almost became extinct during this time, but apparently by increasing their diet to include fish and hunting more efficiently with spears, they were able to survive. > > Once the dry spell was over, Homo Sapiens moved up Africa and where ever they settled, whatever Humanoid species was around disappeared. There were several _archaic_ species of man, and Neanderthal was only one of them. Even Homo Erectus and several species of australopithecus were still around at that time. Just a couple things-- Australopithecines all died out before modern humans emerged as a species. And while there were populations of Erectus in Asia 75k years ago, there were none in Africa. We really don’t know if modern Humans encountered Erectus in Asia, but it’s possible they did. It’s also possible there was some interbreeding, as with Neanderthals. ---
**Author:** ![Darth\_Ayebaw](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darth_ayebaw/32/9870_2.png) [@Darth\_Ayebaw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darth_Ayebaw)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2010, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-advanced-were-the-neanderthals/550149/26 "2010-08-14T04:55:35Z")
It’s amazing to think that even in relatively recent times there were four species of hominids coexisting. > **[Homo floresiensis](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homo_floresiensis)** > > Homo floresiensis ( /flɔːrˈɛziːˌɛn.sɪs/ also known as "Flores Man") is an extinct species of small archaic human that inhabited the island of Flores, Indonesia, until the arrival of modern humans about 50,000 years ago. > The remains of an individual who would have stood about 1.1 m (3 ft 7 in) in height were discovered in 2003 at Liang Bua cave. Partial skeletons of at least nine individuals have been recovered, including one complete skull, referred to as "LB1". > This hominin was at first con... > **[Solo Man](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homo_erectus_soloensis)** > > Solo Man (Homo erectus soloensis) is a subspecies of H. erectus that lived along the Solo River in Java, Indonesia, about 117,000 to 108,000 years ago in the Late Pleistocene. This population is the last known record of the species. It is known from 14 skullcaps, two tibiae, and a piece of the pelvis excavated near the village of Ngandong, and possibly three skulls from Sambungmacan and a skull from Ngawi depending on classification. The Ngandong site was first excavated from 1931 to 1933 unde... > **[Neanderthal](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neanderthal)** > > Neanderthals (/niˈændərˌtɑːl, neɪ-, -ˌθɑːl/; Homo neanderthalensis or H. sapiens neanderthalensis), also written as Neandertals, are an extinct species or subspecies of archaic humans who lived in Eurasia until about 40,000 years ago. The reasons for Neanderthal extinction are disputed. Theories for their extinction include demographic factors such as small population size and inbreeding, competitive replacement, interbreeding and assimilation with modern humans, It is unclear when the line... > **[Human](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human)** > > Humans, or modern humans (Homo sapiens), are the most common and widespread species of primate. A great ape characterized by their hairlessness, bipedalism, and high intelligence, humans have a large brain and resulting cognitive skills that enable them to thrive in varied environments and develop complex societies and civilizations. Humans are highly social and tend to live in complex social structures composed of many cooperating and competing groups, from families and kinship networks to ... I just wish we knew more about how they/we interacted. How smart they were, and what sort of culture existed. And why we’re the last ones with our closest relative now being chimps. Anyone have any good books or documentaries to recommend on the subject? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2010, 6:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-advanced-were-the-neanderthals/550149/27 "2010-08-14T06:22:08Z")
We are probably the reason that we’re the only ones left. Whether because of warfare or some sort of outcompeting, we somehow led to the extinction of the rest. ---
**Author:** ![Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b38774/32.png) [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Attack_from_the_3rd_dimension)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2010, 6:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-advanced-were-the-neanderthals/550149/28 "2010-08-14T06:51:57Z")
> [@qazwart](#): > > I haven’t heard about those. Unfortunately, concealed pits don’t stay around for over 30,000 years and how would you see an over-the-cliff hunting strategy? This may be of interest: [Head-smashed-in-buffalo-jump](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Head-Smashed-In_Buffalo_Jump). ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2010, 7:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-advanced-were-the-neanderthals/550149/29 "2010-08-14T07:52:42Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > [http://discovermagazine.com/2009/nov/30-did-we-mate-with-neanderthals-or-murder-them](http://discovermagazine.com/2009/nov/30-did-we-mate-with-neanderthals-or-murder-them) > > This article raises the possibility of humans eating neanderthals. > > I suspect they tasted just like chicken. 😉 Only the cowardly ones. ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2010, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-advanced-were-the-neanderthals/550149/30 "2010-08-14T13:31:44Z")
> [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](#): > > > [@qazwart](#): > > > > I haven’t heard about those. Unfortunately, concealed pits don’t stay around for over 30,000 years and how would you see an over-the-cliff hunting strategy? > > This may be of interest: [Head-smashed-in-buffalo-jump](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Head-Smashed-In_Buffalo_Jump). Damn. Beat me to it. As real place names go, it even beats Moose Jaw and Medicine Hat just down the highway a few hours. Indians had done the stampede-over-a-cliff thing for 5500 years according to the article. I remember as a kid reading about how one guy would dress in a buffalo skin and try to lead the herd in the right direction. IIRC the Australian aborigines even had a variation where they herded animals into a corral using a bunch of fires as guides. It makes you wonder whether speech or planning and strategic group action were also additional hunting skills that allowed homos to outcompete the Netherlanders. 🙂 All it takes is for modern humans to be more efficient at hunting. If the neaderthals’ meals are slowly dissapearing, it doesn’t take warfare or cannibalism to get rid of them. They would slowly starve away. Although I’m sure there were plenty of the “I saw it first” vs “I killed it first so it’s mine” disputes when hunting big game, that were settled the hard way. ---
**Author:** ![gravitycrash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@gravitycrash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gravitycrash)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2010, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-advanced-were-the-neanderthals/550149/31 "2010-08-14T18:39:31Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > The newest research suggests that Neanderthals never truly died out. Instead, they hybridized with certain groups of Europeans and Neanderthal genes are still found with more frequency in some European populations than in sub-saharan Arfican ones. You may be able to answer part of your own question by looking in the mirror. > > [http://www.nydailynews.com/lifestyle/2010/05/06/2010-05-06\_neanderthal\_genes\_live\_on\_in\_modern\_humans.html](http://www.nydailynews.com/lifestyle/2010/05/06/2010-05-06_neanderthal_genes_live_on_in_modern_humans.html) Judging by this guy [Blago](http://i.huffpost.com/gen/185159/thumbs/s-BLAGOJEVICH-large.jpg) and some of my relatives from the old country I would say that this is quite likely. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![qazwart](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/5fc32e/32.png) [@qazwart](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/qazwart)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2010, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-advanced-were-the-neanderthals/550149/32 "2010-08-15T04:27:43Z")
[quote=“John\_Mace, post:25, topic:550149”] > [@qazwart](#): > > Just a couple things-- Australopithecines all died out before modern humans emerged as a species. And while there were populations of Erectus in Asia 75k years ago, there were none in Africa. We really don’t know if modern Humans encountered Erectus in Asia, but it’s possible they did. It’s also possible there was some interbreeding, as with Neanderthals. I was trying to find that Scientific American article. It talked about the fact that multiple species of humanoids existed at the same time and talked about Australopithecines being in Africa at the time as well as H. Erectus. The idea that a single species of human is only very recent. (i.e. only from about 30,000 years ago when Neanderthalds died out). There is also questions whether Homo Floresiensis [might actually be a species of Australopithecine](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16919706). This was thought impossible because Australopithecines never left Africa, but recent findings [Dmanisi, Georgia](http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=first-humans-to-leave-afr) may show otherwise. Then there is also [X-Woman](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8583254.stm) which may be a fourth species of humanoid living a mere 30,000 years ago. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2010, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-advanced-were-the-neanderthals/550149/33 "2010-08-15T16:51:23Z")
> [@qazwart](#): > > I was trying to find that Scientific American article. It talked about the fact that multiple species of humanoids existed at the same time and talked about Australopithecines being in Africa at the time as well as H. Erectus. The idea that a single species of human is only very recent. (i.e. only from about 30,000 years ago when Neanderthalds died out). If you can find the article, I’d like to see it. It’s certainly true that there were several species of the genus Homo extant 30 -50k years ago, but not in Africa and no Australopithecines. That’s what I was responding to in your post. > [@](#): > > There is also questions whether Homo Floresiensis [might actually be a species of Australopithecine](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16919706). This was thought impossible because Australopithecines never left Africa, but recent findings [Dmanisi, Georgia](http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=first-humans-to-leave-afr) may show otherwise. That’s a lot of conjecture, and not what one would call a consensus in the scientific community. _H. floresiensis_ is a very recent discovery, and its small size creates lots of problems that we simply don’t understand at present. The Georgian finds, too, are problematic as I noted in a post above. But again, no consensus on their being Australopethicines. They are still lumped into the Genus [Homo](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homo). > [@](#): > > Then there is also [X-Woman](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8583254.stm) which may be a fourth species of humanoid living a mere 30,000 years ago. If we’re talking about possibilities, yes. But even your own cite says: > [@](#): > > However, for now, the researchers have steered away from describing the specimen as a new species. So, our present understanding is that we had 4 species of Homo around that time, although the non-sapiens were all living outside Africa. That could certainly change in the future as new fossils are found and analyzed. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2010, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-advanced-were-the-neanderthals/550149/34 "2010-08-15T17:17:49Z")
> [@md2000](#): > > > [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](#): > > > > This may be of interest: [Head-smashed-in-buffalo-jump](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Head-Smashed-In_Buffalo_Jump). > > Damn. Beat me to it. > As real place names go, it even beats Moose Jaw and Medicine Hat just down the highway a few hours. > > Indians had done the stampede-over-a-cliff thing for 5500 years according to the article. I remember as a kid reading about how one guy would dress in a buffalo skin and try to lead the herd in the right direction. > > IIRC the Australian aborigines even had a variation where they herded animals into a corral using a bunch of fires as guides. > > It makes you wonder whether speech or planning and strategic group action were also additional hunting skills that allowed homos to outcompete the Netherlanders. 🙂 > > All it takes is for modern humans to be more efficient at hunting. If the neaderthals’ meals are slowly dissapearing, it doesn’t take warfare or cannibalism to get rid of them. They would slowly starve away. Although I’m sure there were plenty of the “I saw it first” vs “I killed it first so it’s mine” disputes when hunting big game, that were settled the hard way. Me, too. Not ten days ago I was running around with some grad students (not mine, I was a tourist) at Vore Buffalo Jump in Wyoming. Great fun. But it was clear that, for this location at least, the animals were butchered at the bottom of he jump and the pieces hauled away. The entire carcass was not pulled from the jump. [http://www.sundancewyoming.com/parallel/vore.htm](http://www.sundancewyoming.com/parallel/vore.htm) ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2010, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-advanced-were-the-neanderthals/550149/35 "2010-08-15T18:33:30Z")
> [@qazwart](#): > > What are found with early Homo Sapiens are spear heads, fish hooks, etc. Fish hooks are found in South Africa and date as far back as 50,000 years ago. These aren’t associated with Neanderthals. All Neanderthals had were hand axes. I’m sorry, but where are you getting this from? Every resource I can find states Neanderthals used a wide range of tools, including spears. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2010, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-advanced-were-the-neanderthals/550149/36 "2010-08-15T18:40:42Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > > [@qazwart](#): > > > > What are found with early Homo Sapiens are spear heads, fish hooks, etc. Fish hooks are found in South Africa and date as far back as 50,000 years ago. These aren’t associated with Neanderthals. All Neanderthals had were hand axes. > > I’m sorry, but where are you getting this from? Every resource I can find states Neanderthals used a wide range of tools, including spears. The operative word being the “head” in “spear head”. But you’re still right. Neanderthals had spear heads as part of their toolkit. ---
**Author:** ![Floater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/dc4da7/32.png) [@Floater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Floater)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2010, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-advanced-were-the-neanderthals/550149/37 "2010-08-16T16:27:10Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > The newest research suggests that Neanderthals never truly died out. Instead, they hybridized with certain groups of Europeans and Neanderthal genes are still found with more frequency in some European populations than in sub-saharan Arfican ones. Not exactly correct. There are some genes common to Neanderthal and Sapiens, but they have **only** been found in some non African populations, indicating that _some_ interbreeding took place after the latter had left their African home. Interestingly enough those genes only come from Neanderthal males, so the question is why? Are they a result of Neanderthals raping Sapiens women or what? ---
**Author:** ![alterego](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/6bbea6/32.png) [@alterego](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alterego)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2010, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-advanced-were-the-neanderthals/550149/38 "2010-08-16T16:54:13Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > > [@RickJay](#): > > > > I’m sorry, but where are you getting this from? Every resource I can find states Neanderthals used a wide range of tools, including spears. > > The operative word being the “head” in “spear head”. But you’re still right. Neanderthals had spear heads as part of their toolkit. Spears are easily found and fashioned. If you have a hand axe or a rock you can sharpen a stick that you find on the ground. Intelligence will allow you to make a better spear, but the real differences are going to be found in evolved traits such as finer sensorimotor control. Advanced throwing is an evolved trait. Humans, for instance, have direct projections from neurons in hand muscles to motor cortex, allowing us to do things that less evolved species could do in a coarse way, in a much finer and controlled way. This includes throwing a Neanderthal’s crude spear with more force over longer distances and with more accuracy. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-advanced-were-the-neanderthals/550149.md?page=1)