# How Africa would look if it hadn't been colonized **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 5, 2014, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-africa-would-look-if-it-hadnt-been-colonized/687716 "2014-05-05T15:58:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2014, 12:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-africa-would-look-if-it-hadnt-been-colonized/687716/21 "2014-05-06T12:03:55Z")
> [@Chihuahua](#): > > Confused. > > People keep blaming the colonial powers for carving up Africa in an arbitrary and unworkable way. This ignores the fact that there is NO way to divide Africa into nation-states that does justice to every ethnic group, especially large ones with divided and overlapping ranges (like the Hausa). Any attempt to do so would end up like the picture in the blog… a giant mess of Balkanized micronations. As has been pointed out, this drawing assumes that they conglomerated into nation-states which is far from a sure thing, and more like a best guess. > > What I will say is that any idea of a unified pan-African nation is a joke. Afrocentric statements like njtt’s ignore the reality that Africa is a hodgepodge of competing and often violently opposed tribal groups fighting over limited resources… just like everywhere else in the world. The idea that all of Africa’s woes are based on some foreigner carving up the map is a farce. It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to realize that having a country divided between the Sahel and the tropics (and the accompanying cultures and livelihoods) has worked out very poorly for every single country without exception with this divide. Nobody is arguing that Africa would become a magic peaceful fairly land. But mitigating some of the more balls-stupid things the colonial powers did would be a pretty big help. I would speculate that without colonialism, ethnic identity would not be as big of a deal as it is now. It wouldn’t disappear, of course, but it would be more like ethnic identity in Asia or Europe- an interesting aside, but relatively rarely the cause of deadly violence. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2014, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-africa-would-look-if-it-hadnt-been-colonized/687716/22 "2014-05-06T12:49:17Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > It wouldn’t disappear, of course, but it would be more like ethnic identity in Asia or Europe- an interesting aside, but relatively rarely the cause of deadly violence. Are you sure you don’t want to expand on this a little bit? Because I can cite lots of times in living memory where ethnic violence has been deadly on both those continents (culminating in the Holocaust, of course). ---
**Author:** ![ctnguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@ctnguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ctnguy)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2014, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-africa-would-look-if-it-hadnt-been-colonized/687716/23 "2014-05-06T13:18:58Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > That criticism completely misses the point.The point of that map is taking existing precolonial setups and _projecting what it would be like if they amalgamated into nation-states_. He’s just fighting the hypothetical. I’m with him on some of the naming being pants, though, but the mapmaker was OK with the Khoe-khoen naming, which is just completely surprising. Most people don’t even _know_ about the Khoe-khoen seperate from Bushmen, never mind their historic divisions. Ja, it was the criticism of the naming that I found more compelling in that post. ---
**Author:** ![OurLordPeace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/e8c25b/32.png) [@OurLordPeace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OurLordPeace)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2014, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-africa-would-look-if-it-hadnt-been-colonized/687716/24 "2014-05-06T13:41:38Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Are you sure you don’t want to expand on this a little bit? Because I can cite lots of times in living memory where ethnic violence has been deadly on both those continents (culminating in the Holocaust, of course). That would not be the best example. The stereotype back then was that Jews were a bunch of Communists. Remember, the first victims of the Holocaust (and a large part of its total victims) were ideological, with nothing ethnic about it. ---
**Author:** ![OurLordPeace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/e8c25b/32.png) [@OurLordPeace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OurLordPeace)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2014, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-africa-would-look-if-it-hadnt-been-colonized/687716/25 "2014-05-06T13:43:39Z")
> [@Chihuahua](#): > > Confused. > > People keep blaming the colonial powers for carving up Africa in an arbitrary and unworkable way. This ignores the fact that there is NO way to divide Africa into nation-states that does justice to every ethnic group, especially large ones with divided and overlapping ranges (like the Hausa). Any attempt to do so would end up like the picture in the blog… a giant mess of Balkanized micronations. As has been pointed out, this drawing assumes that they conglomerated into nation-states which is far from a sure thing, and more like a best guess. > > What I will say is that any idea of a unified pan-African nation is a joke. Afrocentric statements like njtt’s ignore the reality that Africa is a hodgepodge of competing and often violently opposed tribal groups fighting over limited resources… just like everywhere else in the world. The idea that all of Africa’s woes are based on some foreigner carving up the map is a farce. Consider the way independent African nations have been treated by world’s great powers, continuing to the present day, and then consider that might be much more damaging than colonization (and its aftermath) was. ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2014, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-africa-would-look-if-it-hadnt-been-colonized/687716/26 "2014-05-06T14:08:35Z")
> [@OurLordPeace](#): > > That would not be the best example. The stereotype back then was that Jews were a bunch of Communists. Uhmm, rather the other way round. Jews were supposed to be behind communism. Well, bolshevism at least. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2014, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-africa-would-look-if-it-hadnt-been-colonized/687716/27 "2014-05-06T14:13:08Z")
> [@OurLordPeace](#): > > That would not be the best example. The stereotype back then was that Jews were a bunch of Communists. No, the stereotype was that Communists were a bunch of Jews. and the Roma? Were they all Social Democrats? > [@](#): > > Remember, the first victims of the Holocaust (and a large part of its total victims) were ideological, with nothing ethnic about it. Nope. You just have to look at [Nazi propaganda](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Der_Giftpilz)to see that it was ethnic hatred, not anything ideological. _Ideological_ differences don’t lead to anti-miscegenation laws. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2014, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-africa-would-look-if-it-hadnt-been-colonized/687716/28 "2014-05-06T14:41:13Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Are the Khoikhoi and the San going to be able to hold onto the Cape, though? In real life, the Sotho, the Xhosa, and the Zulu weren’t able to expand further wast and south because the English and Afrikaaners stopped them. Would the San and Khoikhoi be able to hold off Bantu encroachment? Wait, these Khoikhoi, are they from _Phantom Menace_ or _A New Hope?_ ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2014, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-africa-would-look-if-it-hadnt-been-colonized/687716/29 "2014-05-06T15:06:50Z")
Ethnicity is certainly not the only factor is determining the borders of nations, but it’s a big one and since people have been on that continent the longest and they have the largest variety of ethnicities I’d say it would look a lot like [THIS](https://www.google.com/search?q=map+ethnicity+of+africa&es_sm=93&tbm=isch&imgil=pZWOxmNI5yuuMM%253A%253Bhttps%253A%252F%252Fencrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com%252Fimages%253Fq%253Dtbn%253AANd9GcQ6bBHI4XtaDwZfaPWn5sYWPqurK_RAxL6KwwXlBGarGk_D2fYrTQ%253B816%253B1056%253B5mdoqsylOZt68M%253Bhttp%25253A%25252F%25252Fpeterslarson.com%25252F2011%25252F01%25252F19%25252Fafrican-conflict-and-ethnic-distribution%25252F&source=iu&usg=__SbbjxxyIOwxUQ0d5J87-uL2Rmf8%3D&sa=X&ei=4vloU9ynC4qwygHTsIGYDQ&ved=0CDYQ9QEwAw#facrc=_&imgdii=_&imgrc=WpA_bxRVeskKYM%253A%3B5mdoqsylOZt68M%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fpslarson2.files.wordpress.com%252F2011%252F01%252Fmurdockmapbound.png%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fpeterslarson.com%252F2011%252F01%252F19%252Fafrican-conflict-and-ethnic-distribution%252F%3B816%3B1056) ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2014, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-africa-would-look-if-it-hadnt-been-colonized/687716/30 "2014-05-06T15:19:51Z")
But if you drew a map of Europe by ethnicity, it wouldn’t look exactly like the current map of Europe. Especially depending on if you’re a lumper or splitter–I mean, are Danish and Norwegian and Swedish separate ethnicities or one ethnicity? Plus the ethnic populations of Europe have had several brutal rounds of ethnic cleansing and forced assimilation over the last few centuries by various states who wanted ethnic, religious, and/or linguistic unification. Then people move or the borders move, and they have to start all over again. Nation states and empires reinforce ethnic identification with the dominant ethnicity. Even without a deliberate policy of assimilation, people see the advantages of learning the language and folkways of the dominant power. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2014, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-africa-would-look-if-it-hadnt-been-colonized/687716/31 "2014-05-06T15:50:53Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Wait, these Khoikhoi, are they from _Phantom Menace_ or _A New Hope?_ They’re an ethnic group/related group of ethnic groups that live in South Africa and Namibia. I think Mr. Dibble is of part Khokhoi ancestry, or am I wrong there? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2014, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-africa-would-look-if-it-hadnt-been-colonized/687716/32 "2014-05-06T15:54:59Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Are you sure you don’t want to expand on this a little bit? Because I can cite lots of times in living memory where ethnic violence has been deadly on both those continents (culminating in the Holocaust, of course). There’s ethnic violence going on right now in Europe, in SouthUkraine. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2014, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-africa-would-look-if-it-hadnt-been-colonized/687716/33 "2014-05-06T16:15:21Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > They’re an ethnic group/related group of ethnic groups that live in South Africa and Namibia. I think Mr. Dibble is of part Khokhoi ancestry, or am I wrong there? I’m pretty sure **Brain** knows that, and yes, I am a tiny bit Khoekhoen. I laughed, anyway. > [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > There’s ethnic violence going on right now in Europe, in SouthUkraine. Yep. I can’t think of _any_ time when Europe _wasn’t_ undergoing deadly ethnic fighting. And Asia is the same. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2014, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-africa-would-look-if-it-hadnt-been-colonized/687716/34 "2014-05-06T16:16:46Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Are you sure you don’t want to expand on this a little bit? Because I can cite lots of times in living memory where ethnic violence has been deadly on both those continents (culminating in the Holocaust, of course). I am speaking about today, where ethnic violence happens, but for most people it is not the primary unit of identity and political organization. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2014, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-africa-would-look-if-it-hadnt-been-colonized/687716/35 "2014-05-06T16:41:19Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > Ethnicity is certainly not the only factor is determining the borders of nations, but it’s a big one and since people have been on that continent the longest and they have the largest variety of ethnicities I’d say it would look a lot like [THIS](https://www.google.com/search?q=map+ethnicity+of+africa&es_sm=93&tbm=isch&imgil=pZWOxmNI5yuuMM%253A%253Bhttps%253A%252F%252Fencrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com%252Fimages%253Fq%253Dtbn%253AANd9GcQ6bBHI4XtaDwZfaPWn5sYWPqurK_RAxL6KwwXlBGarGk_D2fYrTQ%253B816%253B1056%253B5mdoqsylOZt68M%253Bhttp%25253A%25252F%25252Fpeterslarson.com%25252F2011%25252F01%25252F19%25252Fafrican-conflict-and-ethnic-distribution%25252F&source=iu&usg=__SbbjxxyIOwxUQ0d5J87-uL2Rmf8%3D&sa=X&ei=4vloU9ynC4qwygHTsIGYDQ&ved=0CDYQ9QEwAw#facrc=_&imgdii=_&imgrc=WpA_bxRVeskKYM%253A%3B5mdoqsylOZt68M%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fpslarson2.files.wordpress.com%252F2011%252F01%252Fmurdockmapbound.png%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fpeterslarson.com%252F2011%252F01%252F19%252Fafrican-conflict-and-ethnic-distribution%252F%3B816%3B1056) Interesting picture, but I don’t see a key. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2014, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-africa-would-look-if-it-hadnt-been-colonized/687716/36 "2014-05-06T16:43:10Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > I am speaking about today, where ethnic violence happens, but for most people it is not the primary unit of identity and political organization. It is still a very strange and not factual thing to say. You forget it seems even the recent history in Europe as in the Balkans or let us even say Asia with its communal violences in India, in Myanmar even right now, etc. I do not think even that it is correct to say broadly that in Europe ethnicity is not the primary identification or political organisation. The statement was wrong. Otherwise, that map was very strange and made no sense I think. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2014, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-africa-would-look-if-it-hadnt-been-colonized/687716/37 "2014-05-06T17:01:18Z")
In Europe, there is a gradual convergence between ethnic and national identity, to the point where national identity is often the primary ethnic identity. That varies wildly from region to region, from the Basque separatists who are emphatically NOT their national identity, to the French of let’s say the western Champagne whose ethnicity and national identity are one. It’s easier for the non-stigmatized majority groups, of course. This happens with every nation-state. It creates a unit of identity which people add to their quiver of identities. Over time, it can grow stronger. I imagine there are plenty of people in Africa whose primary ethnic identity is the nation-state rather than the group, and equally that this will be a lot stronger in the older and more stable states than in the more fractious ones. There’s a lot of factors that weaken ethnic identity: mixed ethnic identity (particularly once there are three or more heritage identities), emigration, change of language, stigmatization. I can’t imagine that Africa would be immune to any of these. In my limited experience, Botswana has a strong national identity alongside the ethnic identities. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2014, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-africa-would-look-if-it-hadnt-been-colonized/687716/38 "2014-05-06T17:21:50Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > I am speaking about today, where ethnic violence happens, but for most people it is not the primary unit of identity and political organization. Again, I think you’re a bit too easy with the “most people” there - I mean, are you including India there, where ethnic identity is a big thing? Spain? The Balkans? Palestine? Even China - relatively homogeneous and yet every week I’m reading of some mass stabbing relating to ethnic separatists. ---
**Author:** ![OurLordPeace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/e8c25b/32.png) [@OurLordPeace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OurLordPeace)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2014, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-africa-would-look-if-it-hadnt-been-colonized/687716/39 "2014-05-06T20:16:56Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > No, the stereotype was that Communists were a bunch of Jews. > > and the Roma? Were they all Social Democrats?Nope. You just have to look at [Nazi propaganda](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Der_Giftpilz)to see that it was ethnic hatred, not anything ideological. _Ideological_ differences don’t lead to anti-miscegenation laws. The “stab in the back” story that emerged after WWI, promoted by many elements including the Nazis, said that Leftists, particularly Communists, didn’t support the troops, and brought defeat to Germany. Because of the aforementioned stereotype, this smear gained particular traction, and Jews were judged to be prone to Communism as an innate ethnic trait. From there, it was a small step to extend the blame to criminal Roma and degenerate homosexuals and all the rest. The political, ideological origins of this episode are often overlooked, but go a long way towards explaining its depth and breadth. It wasn’t just ethnic hatred. ---
**Author:** ![OurLordPeace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/e8c25b/32.png) [@OurLordPeace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OurLordPeace)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2014, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-africa-would-look-if-it-hadnt-been-colonized/687716/40 "2014-05-06T20:20:49Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Again, I think you’re a bit too easy with the “most people” there - I mean, are you including India there, where ethnic identity is a big thing? Spain? The Balkans? Palestine? Even China - relatively homogeneous and yet every week I’m reading of some mass stabbing relating to ethnic separatists. For what it’s worth, on a per capita basis India’s ethnic groups get along very well. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-africa-would-look-if-it-hadnt-been-colonized/687716.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-africa-would-look-if-it-hadnt-been-colonized/687716.md?page=3)